Grace in the Rearview Mirror

Jon: 00:00:12

Welcome to Good News, being brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Lauren: 00:00:17

We are Lauren Welch and Jon Shematek.

Lauren: 00:00:20

Deacons in the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

Jon: 00:00:23

We sure are.

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And we've got some good news for you today.

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We're bringing you some good news from the Reverend Mary Luck Stanley.

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She is the co rector of Old St.

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Paul's Episcopal Church in Baltimore, Maryland.

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Mary graduated from Texas A& M and the Church Divinity School of the Pacific

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Mary is one of four co-authors of the book, Grace In the Rear View Mirror;

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Four Women Priests on Brokenness, Belonging, and the Beauty of God.

Jon: 00:01:00

Welcome, Mary.

Jon: 00:01:01

We're so glad you're here with us today.

Mary: 00:01:05

Well, thank you.

Mary: 00:01:06

It's an honor to be with you, Jon and Lauren, and thank you for inviting me.

Lauren: 00:01:12

We're really

Lauren: 00:01:13

happy to have you, Mary.

Lauren: 00:01:14

To get started, and I know that you all talk about this in your book, but

Lauren: 00:01:19

what inspired the writing of this book?

Mary: 00:01:24

Oh, thank you for asking.

Mary: 00:01:26

I was part of a clergy colleague group.

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And I was actually paid to be the mentor through the Thriving in Ministry program

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that was sponsored by the Lilly Foundation and Virginia Theological Seminary.

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And we were all over the country, so we were meeting on Zoom.

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This is before the pandemic and before people knew how to use

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Zoom, so it was very exotic.

Mary: 00:01:52

And we had one in person gathering, a retreat.

Mary: 00:01:56

And at that gathering, We shared our spiritual autobiographies with each

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other as a way of reflecting and getting to know each other more deeply.

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One of the things that we also did was to develop people's learning goals.

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And lo and behold, three of the clergy in the group had the

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learning goal of writing a book.

Mary: 00:02:18

And I felt responsible as the mentor, and because I, I do write, I said, Oh,

Mary: 00:02:23

okay, well I'll help you write this book.

Mary: 00:02:26

And I never thought it would get published.

Lauren: 00:02:28

So that was a surprise, huh?

Mary: 00:02:31

It was a surprise, and we wrote together for several years, and my writing

Mary: 00:02:37

coach helped us with editing, and we, we did meet one other time to have a writing

Mary: 00:02:42

retreat, and talked about the theme of our book, but in a way, we all wrote, and

Mary: 00:02:48

the theme emerged, so we were really happy that it came together toward the end.

Lauren: 00:02:53

Can you talk about the theme of your book and how that evolved?

Mary: 00:03:00

Yes we really wanted to write a book that would invite people to see

Mary: 00:03:07

God at work in their everyday lives.

Mary: 00:03:11

We started with a conversation about how every human being really yearns.

Mary: 00:03:17

To have encounters with something greater than themselves the sacred and or call it

Mary: 00:03:22

a higher power You know God if you will and so We really wanted to try to write

Mary: 00:03:28

some stories that would help people to see you know God is in the ordinary as much

Mary: 00:03:34

as in the extraordinary and the obvious

Jon: 00:03:38

Yeah, and so Mary that sounds like something that is kind of a universal

Jon: 00:03:42

Need or a universal theme for people.

Jon: 00:03:45

The reason I'm saying that in your subtitle there's Four women Priests and

Jon: 00:03:52

I think as I wrote in my review of your book I'm neither a woman nor a priest

Jon: 00:03:58

nor am I married to a priest and so you And your co authors are all Episcopal

Jon: 00:04:02

priests married to Episcopal priests.

Jon: 00:04:06

Is that right?

Mary: 00:04:08

Yes, and we all have children and so we did think that we had a particular

Mary: 00:04:15

voice A particular contribution and we really took seriously that there are lots

Mary: 00:04:22

of theologians and really everyone's a theologian when you talk about God, but

Mary: 00:04:27

that a lot of the theologians in the past

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were men.

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Those are the people who wrote and were revered.

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We really took seriously that we're theologians and we're women and we

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are going to reflect on God from a perspective of women today who

Mary: 00:04:46

are right in the thick of lives.

Jon: 00:04:49

And that is something that has relevance for people who are

Jon: 00:04:52

not women, who are not priests, who are not married to priests.

Mary: 00:04:57

Well there's a guy in my parish who said, well, I, I don't

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know if I can relate to this.

Mary: 00:05:02

I, I, I've never had children and you know, I don't know anything

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about what you all are talking about.

Mary: 00:05:08

And I said, well, maybe you ought to read it and learn something

Mary: 00:05:12

about a different perspective.

Mary: 00:05:14

Maybe it'll add to your understanding of the fullness of God.

Mary: 00:05:19

And so I really think that the book is perhaps.

Mary: 00:05:25

Some theological reflection and some stories that people maybe have not

Mary: 00:05:30

encountered as much in the literature.

Mary: 00:05:32

I mean, I don't know if there's a lot of theological reflection on

Mary: 00:05:37

things like infertility and adoption and raising children and marriage.

Mary: 00:05:43

And so, I hope that it's a real contribution.

Lauren: 00:05:46

Mary, what have you learned from writing this book, and reading it and

Lauren: 00:05:53

rethinking it and talking with people?

Mary: 00:05:56

Well, I'm starting to...

Mary: 00:05:59

have kind of an overarching theory about how the book came together for

Mary: 00:06:04

me and, and answering the question why?

Mary: 00:06:07

Why did we construct the book this way?

Mary: 00:06:09

Why did we write it?

Mary: 00:06:11

How would it be helpful to people?

Mary: 00:06:13

And so what I think is that if you start with the understanding that every

Mary: 00:06:19

human being yearns for to connect with something greater than themselves.

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And you can call it different names, higher power, God whatever.

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But if you start with that, and then you also have an understanding

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that God is omnipresent and is all around us all the time, then...

Mary: 00:06:37

The question is, why is it that people sometimes feel like it's so hard

Mary: 00:06:42

to experience God, to connect with God, to be in the presence of God?

Mary: 00:06:47

In some ways, it's really easy to be part of feel connected to God when you're

Mary: 00:06:53

looking out at the ocean, or you're hiking a mountain and seeing gorgeous

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views, or when you witness the birth of a child, or you're falling in love.

Mary: 00:07:03

It's harder in our lives to see God when we're right in the midst of

Mary: 00:07:09

a crisis or a very stressful time.

Mary: 00:07:12

And so I've had that experience where during a stressful time involving grief

Mary: 00:07:20

and, and illness and death, that it felt like God had left the building.

Mary: 00:07:26

It felt like I was abandoned by God.

Mary: 00:07:29

And That presented a lot of questions and problems for me.

Mary: 00:07:33

I think that what happens is that when we're in a crisis, We get tunnel vision.

Mary: 00:07:40

You know, we know that cortisol is a chemical that is a crisis response

Mary: 00:07:45

that help us to focus, but I also think that cortisol can help us or,

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or create a sense of tunnel vision.

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And when you get tunnel vision, you're very focused on solving a

Mary: 00:07:57

problem to get out of the crisis.

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But also, you can't see the perspective around what that

Mary: 00:08:04

tunnel vision has focused you on.

Mary: 00:08:07

And so I have this, this theory, and it's not my theory, it's, it's

Mary: 00:08:12

based on psychology and things I've read and my experience, is

Mary: 00:08:16

that sometimes it takes time.

Mary: 00:08:19

like years of healing to get to the place where you can look back on a stressful

Mary: 00:08:27

situation and not still have tunnel vision, but be able to mine that and look

Mary: 00:08:34

around and ask the question, where was God in the midst of that awful time when I

Mary: 00:08:39

just felt like God had left the building?

Mary: 00:08:42

And so my experience is that Looking back on those kinds of

Mary: 00:08:47

memories is a healing process.

Mary: 00:08:50

And it's funny that a lot of people who've read the book have talked not

Mary: 00:08:55

only about having tears as they read the book, but also raucous laughter.

Mary: 00:09:01

And I wonder sometimes about the cathartic and medicinal benefits of

Mary: 00:09:06

both laughter and tears when we go back and we, we look at our memories.

Mary: 00:09:12

We need to have some kind of movement there.

Mary: 00:09:15

So what I hope is that this book is an invitation To people, when they're

Mary: 00:09:21

ready, to look back on their lives.

Mary: 00:09:24

To consider writing a spiritual autobiography, or just sharing stories

Mary: 00:09:29

with whoever their trusted people are.

Mary: 00:09:31

It'd be great for a book group.

Mary: 00:09:34

And I hope that that's cathartic for them, and that somehow they say, Oh, wow,

Mary: 00:09:42

it felt like God was absent from this situation, but really I see God's grace.

Mary: 00:09:47

at work now and the great thing is that now that I've been thinking about it

Mary: 00:09:54

and I've had that experience enough times, the next time I get into a really

Mary: 00:09:59

horrible phase of my life, I think I'm going to have more confidence.

Mary: 00:10:05

That I'm gonna know.

Mary: 00:10:07

I have tunnel vision right now.

Mary: 00:10:08

It feels like God's not here because I'm suffering too much.

Mary: 00:10:12

But if I wait long enough, I will gain perspective eventually.

Mary: 00:10:18

And I know that's a long answer, but that is my perspective and and the way

Mary: 00:10:23

that I've been thinking about this book.

Jon: 00:10:26

Yeah, I think that is, actually points very clearly to the value

Jon: 00:10:32

of experiencing that book for the general public because I think that,

Jon: 00:10:37

again, I think that's a universal issue that we all struggle with.

Jon: 00:10:42

You know, you mentioned there were times when God, it felt like God had

Jon: 00:10:46

left the building, and I think all four of the segments by each of the authors

Jon: 00:10:52

kind of hinted at that or stated that.

Jon: 00:10:55

Clearly, that there was a time where something, you know, some of us

Jon: 00:10:59

might even call it a sort of a lack, a loss of faith and you think, wow,

Jon: 00:11:04

here are priests actually talking about times when God seemed absent.

Jon: 00:11:12

From their lives.

Jon: 00:11:13

And that was, that was to me was really some of the more poignant kind of moments.

Jon: 00:11:18

And, and So Mary I read your book the day it came out, I think.

Jon: 00:11:22

And then I, I did a quick refresher

Jon: 00:11:24

and once again I was glad I had a box of Kleenex handy, but I was thinking,

Jon: 00:11:28

how was that for you to actually recall?

Jon: 00:11:32

I don't want to do spoiler alerts for people that haven't experienced

Jon: 00:11:35

the book yet, but how was it for you to actually recall some of those

Jon: 00:11:39

moments of deep deep emotion and You know, you talked about forgiveness.

Jon: 00:11:46

You talked about so many major themes in a, in a very tiny space of of pages.

Jon: 00:11:52

But for you personally, how was the experience of recalling those memories

Jon: 00:11:57

and writing, actually writing this down?

Mary: 00:12:03

Yeah, there were, there were moments of catharsis and I had

Mary: 00:12:06

my own tears and my own laughter.

Mary: 00:12:09

I mean I felt like all four of us.

Mary: 00:12:13

, the four co authors are myself, Kelly Demo, Samantha Vincent

Mary: 00:12:19

Alexander, and Melissa Wilcox.

Mary: 00:12:24

So, we did not set out to write this book the way that it turned out.

Mary: 00:12:30

We set out to write, and we said about every three weeks we would

Mary: 00:12:35

share essays with each other.

Mary: 00:12:38

And I, my impression was that each of us was looking back on our lives

Mary: 00:12:42

and asking ourselves, and I know this is a weird way to say it,

Mary: 00:12:46

but what is it that's vibrating?

Mary: 00:12:49

What in our past could we write about that has resonance?

Mary: 00:12:53

And that's what we wrote about, and it came together.

Mary: 00:12:57

I, I hope it's the Holy Spirit at work knitting us together.

Mary: 00:13:01

We don't spend time together.

Mary: 00:13:03

We're in we're very different locations.

Mary: 00:13:06

We still have a colleague group, but we're not checking in about the book.

Mary: 00:13:09

But my experience of writing the book, first of all, was I

Mary: 00:13:14

was in awe of my fellow authors.

Mary: 00:13:17

They crack me up.

Mary: 00:13:19

They are so funny and so courageous to write about the

Mary: 00:13:24

things that they wrote about.

Mary: 00:13:25

And so vulnerable and so faithful right in the midst of that.

Mary: 00:13:31

I mean, I'm really so inspired by their faith, their stories that they shared.

Mary: 00:13:36

And then in my own writing I just I think it was helped me.

Mary: 00:13:41

Emotionally and psychologically, and I hope that's an invitation to

Mary: 00:13:46

people to recognize that anybody can write I'm not a big writer.

Mary: 00:13:51

I mean, I'm an Episcopal priest, but I have stories to tell and.

Mary: 00:13:56

Other people can tell their stories, too, and putting it down on paper is a

Mary: 00:14:01

wonderful psychotherapeutic and spiritual process, and then sharing it with people.

Mary: 00:14:07

What's that saying about bringing things out into the open?

Mary: 00:14:10

That sunshine is the cure for a lot of what ails us.

Mary: 00:14:14

And so, taking things that were hidden especially things that might

Mary: 00:14:18

involve shame and bringing them out and speaking forthrightly about them

Mary: 00:14:24

is a way of letting sunshine come and, and disinfect the shame and

Mary: 00:14:29

transform that to something sacred.

Mary: 00:14:32

So, stories in my past that maybe felt Hidden or confidential

Mary: 00:14:38

or too private to discuss.

Mary: 00:14:40

I brought those out and I feel a sense that they have been transformed.

Mary: 00:14:45

I feel some resurrection.

Mary: 00:14:47

Some new life right in the middle of that.

Mary: 00:14:50

One of the things I wanted to say was how much Frederick Buechner

Mary: 00:14:55

inspired me for years and years.

Mary: 00:14:58

And can I just read this quote, because it's my favorite thing ever.

Mary: 00:15:03

And we put it as the first thing in the book.

Mary: 00:15:06

But this is from his book, Now and Then, A Memoir of Vocation.

Mary: 00:15:12

And so here's Frederick Buechner a great theologian and writer.

Mary: 00:15:16

He says, Listen to your life.

Mary: 00:15:18

See it for the fathomless mystery it is.

Mary: 00:15:22

In the boredom and pain of it, no less than in the excitement and gladness.

Mary: 00:15:27

Touch, taste, smell your way to the holy and hidden heart of it.

Mary: 00:15:32

Because in the last analysis, all moments are key moments, and life itself is grace.

Mary: 00:15:41

I don't know what your experience has been.

Mary: 00:15:44

in the Episcopal Church.

Mary: 00:15:45

But I'm a cradle Episcopalian.

Mary: 00:15:48

I went to an Episcopal school.

Mary: 00:15:49

I grew up in the church.

Mary: 00:15:51

My dad was a priest.

Mary: 00:15:54

It was shocking to me as an adult for someone to say, look for God in your life.

Mary: 00:16:01

I don't know why that was shocking to me, but it's almost like my

Mary: 00:16:05

upbringing in the church always led me to be looking for a transcendent God

Mary: 00:16:11

outside of my life, my relationship.

Mary: 00:16:15

Another thing that I encountered as an adult, and, and this was

Mary: 00:16:18

through a church called St.

Mary: 00:16:19

Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco Gregory of Nyssa really talked a lot about

Mary: 00:16:26

friendship, our friendship with God.

Mary: 00:16:29

And I had never considered that that was possible to have a friendship

Mary: 00:16:33

with God, and it led me to do a lot of thinking about God being

Mary: 00:16:38

working through my friendships.

Mary: 00:16:41

to care for me, to nurture me.

Mary: 00:16:45

And all of a sudden, a far away transcendent God became very present

Mary: 00:16:51

to me and very imminent in my life.

Mary: 00:16:54

And I started to see that no matter how bad things got in my life, that

Mary: 00:16:58

God was going to work through the people in my life to send care.

Mary: 00:17:03

and even rescue when needed.

Mary: 00:17:06

So I hope again that, that this book invites people to consider that God is

Mary: 00:17:11

right there in their everyday lives.

Mary: 00:17:14

And that even when they're a little bit blinded by tunnel vision, or stress,

Mary: 00:17:19

or grief, or whatever it is, that with time, they might be able to look back.

Mary: 00:17:26

on those experiences and see things through new eyes to see how God

Mary: 00:17:31

may have been present all along.

Jon: 00:17:34

Yeah, and so, Mary, I think one of the things that's just great,

Jon: 00:17:38

too, about your book is that it certainly is meant to be to be read

Jon: 00:17:44

by a person sitting and reading a book like I did earlier this summer.

Jon: 00:17:49

But you also have some wonderful structure in each, after each of the vignettes.

Jon: 00:17:54

There are some questions for reflection and that, you know, you mentioned

Jon: 00:17:59

a book group I can envision this also, and I think you even suggested

Jon: 00:18:03

that could be a great material for for a retreat or for people doing

Jon: 00:18:07

discernment in a group kind of setting.

Jon: 00:18:09

It's just, it's great.

Jon: 00:18:10

You've got the questions, the kind of the starter prompts

Jon: 00:18:13

to, to doing deeper reflection,

Mary: 00:18:15

thank you.

Mary: 00:18:17

I really am amazed book groups are such a big deal.

Mary: 00:18:20

People love their book groups and book groups become places

Mary: 00:18:24

where people share their lives.

Mary: 00:18:26

And journey through life together and, and wow, book groups really got people

Mary: 00:18:30

through the pandemic, didn't they?

Mary: 00:18:33

And so, I hope that this book is used by book groups who will read it

Mary: 00:18:39

together and reflect and then again be led to reflect on their own lives.

Mary: 00:18:44

The four authors really just wanted to say, look, We're inviting

Mary: 00:18:48

you to reflect on your lives.

Mary: 00:18:50

Now we're going to show you how it's done and we're going to share these stories.

Mary: 00:18:54

We hope it makes you laugh and cry and now you go do it.

Mary: 00:18:58

And I really am hoping and praying that church groups and non church

Mary: 00:19:03

groups will find ways to find meaning and inspiration in the book.

Lauren: 00:19:10

Mary, and I think that they will, especially because the questions at the

Lauren: 00:19:16

end of each essay are general questions.

Lauren: 00:19:20

They don't pertain to the experience of the author necessarily.

Lauren: 00:19:27

It can be your experience, which may be quite different.

Lauren: 00:19:31

But with similarities, so the questions do invite people to be vulnerable

Lauren: 00:19:38

and I think that's what each of you all were, were very vulnerable

Lauren: 00:19:44

and that's not something that we're comfortable in doing these days.

Lauren: 00:19:48

How has this, in your own personal life enhanced your spiritual journey, your

Lauren: 00:19:56

emotional journey, in writing this book?

Mary: 00:19:59

Well, I have now this theory, and again, it's not my theory, but I have this

Mary: 00:20:08

theory about when you enter dark times, And how you can feel shut off, and with

Mary: 00:20:17

time and experience and healing, you can look back and see you were not alone.

Mary: 00:20:22

That is a great comfort.

Mary: 00:20:24

I mean, it was the number one issue I had throughout seminary.

Mary: 00:20:29

I've been a priest for 26 years, and I guess it was so it would be, you know,

Mary: 00:20:33

29 years ago that I started seminary.

Mary: 00:20:36

And probably the first day of seminary, they said, what's

Mary: 00:20:39

your big theological problem?

Mary: 00:20:42

that you're going to work on here in seminary.

Mary: 00:20:45

And my theological problem had to do with a time in my life when my mother

Mary: 00:20:50

was ill and, and going blind and dying, where I felt God had abandoned us.

Mary: 00:20:58

And I worked on it academically, I worked on it in my colleague group,

Mary: 00:21:02

I worked on it in CPE and, but I feel like I'm still working on it.

Mary: 00:21:08

This is still part of my work and I wanted to put it in a book and share

Mary: 00:21:14

it because I do think that Other people struggle with this feeling that when

Mary: 00:21:22

times are difficult, that God has left us in the lurch, that God is no

Mary: 00:21:27

longer with us, but what I remember after the 9 11 events, that Mr.

Mary: 00:21:33

Rogers, Fred Rogers who was a good pastor had that quote that he published

Mary: 00:21:38

for children, and he said, you know, I always encourage children when.

Mary: 00:21:43

When there's a crisis, to look for the rescue workers.

Mary: 00:21:47

Look for the rescue workers and that's where God is coming into the situation.

Mary: 00:21:52

And so that's meaningful to me.

Mary: 00:21:55

And I have seen that at work.

Mary: 00:21:57

And so it helps me to be comforted that I can go into any situation, no

Mary: 00:22:03

matter how difficult, with a sense of confidence that God is with me and that

Mary: 00:22:08

God is going to be doing everything in God's power to somehow reach out,

Mary: 00:22:14

comfort me and rescue me where possible.

Jon: 00:22:21

That is, that's really that's really great news.

Jon: 00:22:24

It's not good news.

Jon: 00:22:24

It's great news

Lauren: 00:22:26

so Mary, do you have anything else to add before we leave?

Mary: 00:22:31

Well, it's that it an honor to be able to share my story

Mary: 00:22:35

hoping that it resonates with other people and their stories.

Mary: 00:22:41

I do want to say that in the past 20 years, I have been inspired by people

Mary: 00:22:47

like Anne Lamott and her writing and Brene Brown, who writes a lot about.

Mary: 00:22:53

Courageous sharing, and vulnerability.

Mary: 00:22:55

And so, I, I feel like we're not doing this all on our own.

Mary: 00:22:59

We're, the four authors certainly were influenced by these other great writers.

Mary: 00:23:05

And so, we hope that our book is a contribution to people, and that people

Mary: 00:23:11

will laugh and cry, and find some comfort, and also feel represented.

Mary: 00:23:17

That things like infertility, and adoption, and ministry, and the

Mary: 00:23:23

difficulties that we have in our lives, and Melissa talked about raising a child

Mary: 00:23:28

on the spectrum, that God's at work in the midst of all of that, and that

Mary: 00:23:34

we can bring that out and talk with each other about it, and find support,

Mary: 00:23:40

especially in the Episcopal Church.

Jon: 00:23:46

So Mary, your book is Grace in the Rearview Mirror, Four

Jon: 00:23:50

Women Priests on Brokenness, Belonging, and the Beauty of God.

Jon: 00:23:54

I know that's available on Amazon, because that's where I got it.

Jon: 00:23:57

So we'll put that link in the show notes.

Mary: 00:23:59

One thing I wanted to add is that I've already gotten three requests from

Mary: 00:24:04

people's book groups who would like me to zoom in to the first meeting of their

Mary: 00:24:10

book group when they're reading the book.

Mary: 00:24:13

And, you know, I'd be happy to do that anytime.

Mary: 00:24:16

It would be a joy.

Mary: 00:24:18

And so anyone who thinks that would help with their book group process let me know.

Mary: 00:24:24

Contact me through my email.

Mary: 00:24:26

It's listed on the church website.

Mary: 00:24:28

My co authors would be happy to pop in and be of support in any way that would help.

Jon: 00:24:34

Wow, what a treat that would be to have one of the actual

Jon: 00:24:36

authors at your book group.

Jon: 00:24:38

That doesn't happen that often, so that's a great, that's a great offer.

Jon: 00:24:41

So folks, if anyone who is watching or listening and would like Mary or one

Jon: 00:24:46

of the other co authors to participate in the kickoff to your book group just

Jon: 00:24:50

check out the the web link that'll be in the in our show notes for Old St.

Jon: 00:24:55

Paul's in Baltimore, Maryland, and you can get in touch with Mary and

Jon: 00:24:59

she'll help make that happen for you.

Jon: 00:25:01

So, gosh, Mary, thanks so much.

Jon: 00:25:03

I feel like I've been on sacred ground with you today.

Jon: 00:25:07

Walking, walking a very holy journey and makes me want to take my shoes off,

Jon: 00:25:11

which are almost off anyway, but this is this has just been a real treat.

Jon: 00:25:15

It's been wonderful to see you again, and you're this book is just jam packed

Jon: 00:25:19

with, with goodies for folks, so.

Jon: 00:25:21

Thank you very much for for writing it, but also thank you

Jon: 00:25:24

for spending time with us today.

Mary: 00:25:28

Thank you, Lauren and Jon.

Mary: 00:25:30

I love what you're doing here.

Mary: 00:25:32

I love this podcast and the focus of it.

Mary: 00:25:35

And it's so needed, so it's an honor to be with you and to

Mary: 00:25:39

contribute to sharing the good news.

Lauren: 00:25:45

And Jon and I want to thank our viewers and listeners today, too.

Lauren: 00:25:50

We cannot spread this good news without you.

Lauren: 00:25:54

So please take a moment.

Lauren: 00:25:56

To comment, like, and share on all your social media platforms.

Lauren: 00:26:03

That will help us spread good news to more people.

Lauren: 00:26:06

And until next time, peace and blessings.

Jon: 00:26:13

Good news is being brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Jon: 00:26:17

You can find us on our website, listeningforclues.

Jon: 00:26:20

com, our YouTube channel, our Vimeo channel, and just about every

Jon: 00:26:25

podcast platform that there is.