In the Climb with Markiesha E. Wilson

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Music

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Jon: Welcome to Good News being

brought to you by Listening for Clues.

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Lauren: We are Lauren Welch and

Jon Shematek, deacons in the

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Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

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Jon: We sure are, and today we have a

very special guest with us, Markiesha E.

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Wilson.

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Markiesha is a human capital consultant,

a leadership coach, An author and

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an expert in change management.

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In her bio that she provided for a TEDx

talk that she's given about forgiveness

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as a powerful tool in the workplace,

this is how she describes herself.

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Being an authentic leader is difficult and

especially difficult if you are a woman.

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Even more challenging if

you are a woman of color.

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She is a human capital professional

with over 15 years of proven experience

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in strategizing and partnering

with leadership teams to design

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and empower dynamic workforces.

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Markiesha is a leadership coach with

a unique ability to ignite growth.

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She is an expert level facilitator and

designer of highly rated interactive

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leadership and communications

courses for adult learners in the

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defense and financial industries.

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Welcome, Markiesha.

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We are thrilled to have you today.

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Markiesha: I am thrilled

to be here, Jon and Lauren.

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Thank you so much for this opportunity

to share with your listening audience.

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And for this invitation

just to chat with y'all.

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I'm super excited about it.

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Lauren: Markiesha, we are too.

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It's a joy to have you with us.

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So you are a human capital

consultant that helps leadership

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teams to empower their workforces.

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What inspired you to do

this in the first place?

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Markiesha: Oh, what a great question.

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You know There are some things

that find you, right, that you're

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doing and then you realize, oh

shoot, there's a title for this.

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For me, I was doing training and

development work and spent a lot of time

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working with different So And during

those training sessions, so many of them

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would say, well, you know, it's a bigger

problem than we're being trained for.

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Training isn't always the answer.

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And that was really clear to me as a

training and development professional.

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The training is often given as

the answer for many organizational

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problems and for leadership challenges.

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So I was able to see that and

found an opportunity to get into

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an organization where I could.

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Speak to leaders at their level about

creating strategies that would go

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further than a four hour training.

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That makes sense.

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Jon: Mm hmm.

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Yeah, it sure does.

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Now what has impressed me is I've

learned something about you and

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listened to your TEDx talk which I

highly recommend to folks to do that.

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It's fairly brief.

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I mean, it was only like 12

minutes or something, right?

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Markiesha: That's the requirement.

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TEDx Talks can actually

only be 13 to 17 minutes.

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Did you know that?

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Jon: No, I did not know that.

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It's a rule.

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But it was fascinating to me that the

topic that chose you, or that you chose,

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I don't know quite how that worked,

was forgiveness in the workplace.

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Because I know, you know, when

you're reading your resume, it's

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really all about work and management

and executives and and so on.

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And yet...

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Your talk was about forgiveness.

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Markiesha: Yes.

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So, Jon, being that you, you both

are in the church, you understand

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what it means to be called and

answered to a higher power.

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And I'm a Christian as well.

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That topic literally chose me.

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The conference was set up already, the

TEDx conference, to focus on forgiveness.

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I was a late add when I met

the coordinator of the author's

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tour and they said to me,

well, the topic is forgiveness.

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We'd love you to speak.

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What can you share about that?

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And I just.

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Like, wait a minute.

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This is honestly, Jon and Lauren,

I was thinking this is actually the

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last thing I want to talk about.

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Be in full transparency.

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And then as I, I worked on what

my offer would be to the community

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Yeah, it made so much sense.

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It came to me like, boom, forgiveness

is missing in the workplace.

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And that was my original title is that

forgiveness is missing in the workplace.

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And that's how the topic came to be.

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And it's something that

I firmly believe in.

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There are so many situations that

occur at work that we don't get over.

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And we can't get over.

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And even in my talk, in the 13 minutes,

you'll see that I don't necessarily

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say you're going to have to get over.

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It's really about releasing

what has happened so that you

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can get to the next thing.

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You spend much more time at

work than you do anything else.

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I think the statistic that I quote in

there is that the only thing you spend

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more time doing is sleeping in life.

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Aside from being at work, right?

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And so a lot of things can occur

in all of those relationships.

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And we, again, we train around them.

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We consult around them.

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We strategize around them.

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We write, write you up in HR about

it, but we don't talk about how you

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can release it and move forward.

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Yeah.

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Jon: And I think that was one of

the messages that really struck

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me in your in your 13 minute

talk was about the forgiveness.

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You know, you say the old adage for

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forgive and forget.

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And you say, no, you

don't, you don't forget.

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You don't have to forget.

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It's a memory that you have.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Lauren: So, can you say some

more about the releasing and

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letting go rather than forgetting?

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Markiesha: Yes.

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And you know, since I've done this talk,

Lauren, I have been asked this question.

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Now I'm an expert on it.

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I'm like, wait a minute.

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I'm still working.

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Listen, we're all works in

progress in many ways, right?

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So the releasing to me has become, for

lack of a better phrase, a brainwashing.

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It is a brainwashing and

a heartwashing, right?

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I believe that the heart only

has so much capacity to hold.

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It can hold Joy, hate, hurt, pain,

but it only has so much capacity.

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So if I'm holding onto the pain of someone

offending me in the workplace, making some

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insulting comment, if I'm holding onto the

hurt of not being invited to participate

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in this leadership thing or that thing,

if I'm holding onto offense of any, of

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any kind, any, any sort of negative,

problem that I had that gives me less

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capacity to enjoy the work that I'm doing.

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And so I have to force myself to process,

to think on the positive things, right?

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We know that that is

in Philippians, right?

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Think on these things that are positive.

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There's a very specific reason that exists

because the more time you thinking on

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what's positive, what's What's beautiful.

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What's just, what's right.

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The less time you have to think

on who pissed me off at work

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and how to get back at them.

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And Oh, when I'm boss, I'll do this.

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So for me, it's about intentionally

forcing my thoughts on the positive so

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that I push down and push out the negative

that's really the only way I can speak

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of it now in our coaching training that

I've done at Georgetown University.

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We talk about changing neural pathways

and so on, and that's the science of it

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all, but that's the truth of it for me on

the day to day basis is a brainwashing.

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Markiesha, you cannot think about

how these people got on your nerves.

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You have to think about the joy that you

feel when you mentor a junior consultant.

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And that's what works for me.

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Jon: Yeah, Lauren and I have so often

said, the joy is what's missing,

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and this is one of these amazing

themes it sounds like, in your life.

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I wanted to ask you, Markiesha

in the TEDx talk and also in your

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book, you were really vulnerable.

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You shared some very painful

information about your past.

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relationship with your

parents, your father's death.

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And I'm just wondering have you

incorporated that also in your

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leadership training and your consulting?

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Do you show that kind of vulnerability?

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When you thought of, think about,

I am an audacious black woman

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and I'm going to model this.

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And on the, on the one hand,

and on the other hand, here

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you are with your heart open.

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Markiesha: Yeah.

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Wow.

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There's like 10, 000 ways

I can answer this question.

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So I'll go the easiest way.

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The easiest way is have I incorporated it

in my trainings and my work with women?

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The answer is yes.

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In a very strategic way in that I believe

that all of the, the pain and things that

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I have gone through has enabled me to

put work pain In its proper perspective.

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So that's one of the things that I think

occurs in the lives of men and women is

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we endure a lot at home, put on a nice

suit, cover it up and come to work.

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And I, I bring that forward by

saying, I did that for years, right?

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Showing up nicely dressed and

stuffing down all of this pain

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and regret and sadness, right?

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And so the vulnerability that I show

in the book, I believe, gosh, there's

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so many ways I could go with this.

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But what I believe about that is that

I was at a place where I realized that

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those things that I went through enabled

me to go through and thrive in the work

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environments that I had endured as well.

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I didn't realize that really.

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I'm being honest until I was putting

the book together because I initially

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and intentionally set out to give a

blueprint to women and men and young

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people to follow these eight steps

to get through corporate America.

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But in the writing of it, I realized

that I was going to be using stories

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and as I got to each story, I realized,

yeah, that was the lesson there.

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If I could take the troubled relationship

with my mother, endure that, still love

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her to the best of my ability through

that, then surely, I could figure

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out how to come to work and take all

kinds of things from upper management,

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process it, smile, and push through it.

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It was sort of one fed the other.

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So when I, when I speak in a vulnerable

sense or speak from my vulnerability,

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those challenges that I've had,

I know that I'm speaking from a

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place of experience and strength

and it can make Those workplace

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challenges that feel insurmountable.

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It puts them in their proper perspective.

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Something else to just to say, and

your listeners don't know this.

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You probably don't know this, that

I share when I give my book signings

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and things is that my book went

st,: 2021

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And I do talk about this in the TED talk.

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And that is the same day.

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That my father took his own life and,

and we're coming up on that anniversary.

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So I'm already like getting to that

part where, you know, when you come

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up on the anniversary of things and

I tried, I just was like, God in his

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divine timing, there's, I was trying

to focus on the book, but there was

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no way for me to separate them now.

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Right?

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You're asking me, do you bring it in?

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Well, I don't, I can't separate them now

because they occurred on the same day.

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And What I can say to

people is life is like that.

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Life is like that you can

be on an extreme high.

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And plummet in moments to an extreme low.

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And it's getting through those lows

because you have the encouragement of

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the high that gives you hope, right?

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That you can get through them to

the next side, to the other side.

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So I, I can't get away from it now, Jon.

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I know it's like.

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They're, they're linked

forever, these stories.

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Lauren: Markiesha, you are integrating

your whole life, so together, I

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mean, so that the pain teaches you

a lesson and you can get through to

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the joy by working with it, because

we do have to work with the pain.

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We can't just ignore it.

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Markiesha: In the beginning,

you were stuffing down.

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Lauren: What has surprised you with

all that you're doing and working

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with the people that you work with?

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Markiesha: Oh, I love

this question, Lauren.

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What has surprised me is the impact on

people I just did not expect, right?

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So When I wrote the book, I

pictured young Markieshas, right?

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Like coming into corporate America,

you're young, you're black.

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People have told you you're brilliant.

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You've been the only this, that,

only, only, only a lot in these

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rooms and you need some support.

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So I pictured little Markieshas.

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I also pictured little Laurens,

like, okay, starting my career.

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How do I make it through male

dominated corporate America?

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So I pictured women of all shades.

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I pictured young Harithas.

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I pictured women of all shades, right?

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I did not picture Jon s

being impacted by my book.

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But there are Johns and Donnies and

Ricks who have reached out to me.

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saying this book has impacted them.

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And that has been the biggest

surprise because I, I really thought

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women will pick it up, right?

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My friends will read it.

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And I thought people would

just, you know, read it.

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to see if they were in

the acknowledgements, but

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that was the hardest thing

for people for me to write.

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People keep asking, what

was the hardest chapter?

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The acknowledgements, because I kept

changing it and adding a person.

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But I really just didn't expect that.

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And a friend of mine who shared this

book with her brother and he said

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to her, wow, that really helped me.

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I've been depressed.

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And that completely shocked me.

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I just, I just didn't expect it to have

that impact on different types of people.

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Jon: And let me affirm that, as

someone who's read your book a

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little skeptically at first, because

I thought, you know, what could

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this possibly have to say to me?

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And yet, the day that I read it,

it helped me with something that

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had happened the day before.

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So, you know, an old white guy can benefit

from this and somebody who is, you know,

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retired and not in the corporate world.

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I was at one time, but now I'm in kind

of in the church world primarily and

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in podcasting world it's applicable.

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It applies to Everyone's life situation.

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So I just got to thank

you for for doing this.

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It's

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and the way that you

the way that you did it.

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So you're an author now in this

book I imagine triggers people's

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interest in you and so on.

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What is it that you do on a day to

day basis that's making a difference?

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Is this a consulting business?

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Do you do you do motivational

speaking types of things?

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I'm very much like my daughter in law.

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I've got Excel spreadsheets

for everything.

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So I'm very task and list oriented.

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So

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we need that kind of person

in the world for sure.

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But could you tell us a little bit about

your daily work and how that is actually

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making a difference in people's lives?

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Markiesha: Sure.

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My daily work I spend, I dare not

draw the percentages out, but I

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spend probably most of my time still

doing human capital consulting.

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I work in a couple of

government organizations and.

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Some intelligence communities

around people problems.

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So I make a difference there

working on leadership development

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programs and organizational

development challenges that.

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So that's what most of my

actual work looks like.

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And then, with regard to the book, I've

been invited to talk about my book at

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a number of different organizations

and even family groups and book clubs.

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So most of my time that was

still spent doing the consulting.

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And I also take on a few, very

few executive coaching clients.

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I'm very, very, very picky about the

executive coaching clients I take on,

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because I like to spend real time.

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Getting into their true challenges.

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So I would say a third, a third and a

third, I guess, is how I spend my time

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and making a difference in the world.

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If I can just say, you didn't ask

me this question, but I just want to

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tell people that I finally figured

out what I want to be when I grow up.

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I figured it out like three years ago

when I left corporate America on October

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9th, 2020 at the height of the pandemic.

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Right.

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On my great granny's birthday.

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But I want to be a philanthropist.

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So in order to give money,

I need to make money.

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So my only purpose now in making more

money is to give more money away.

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This year I was able to give away three

scholarships to students, all different

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ages, And they all look different.

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So I just want to continue to work

so that I can continue to give.

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That's what I want my

future life to look like.

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So being on a podcast like this is what

I want my life to look like so that I

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can reach more people and do more good.

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Jon: Yeah, that's amazing.

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And I think it's really ties into one

of your one of your eight messages

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in your book about generosity.

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It's the whole thing.

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Markiesha: It is my number

one core value is generosity.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Beautiful.

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It's all I want to do.

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Beautiful.

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: 00:20:05

You gotta make money to give money.

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: 00:20:06

I, I, I just learned that recently.

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: 00:20:11

Lauren: So, Markiesha, with, with all

your work and all that you do, it sounds

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: 00:20:16

like everything that you do enjoy it.

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: 00:20:19

What else do you do for fun, if you?

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: 00:20:24

Markiesha: So glad you

asked me that question.

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: 00:20:27

Outside of iIn the Climb for fun, I

am addicted to travel and dessert.

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: 00:20:36

I've really had to work on the

dessert thing because now that I'm a

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: 00:20:39

woman of a certain age, things show

up in ways you don't want them to.

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: 00:20:44

Right?

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: 00:20:46

That is what my travel outfits.

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: 00:20:48

But, I love to travel.

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: 00:20:51

I'm obsessed with the Caribbean.

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: 00:20:53

I spend as much time getting there

and spending time on beaches.

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: 00:20:58

I gotta keep my tan going, you know.

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: 00:21:01

So that is what I do for fun.

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: 00:21:04

When I can't travel, I go to concerts.

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: 00:21:06

I'm too thrilled.

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: 00:21:08

One of my great friends just

got us tickets yesterday to go

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: 00:21:11

see Madonna in DC in December.

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: 00:21:16

I go to concerts and I travel.

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: 00:21:19

I was at the hip hop 50th concert in

the Bronx but yeah, that's what I do for

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: 00:21:23

fun, I haven't done it in a bit, but I

have done some acting through my church.

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: 00:21:28

Yes, I did a lot of that, but we

put it on pause because of COVID.

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: 00:21:33

So, but I'd love to get back into acting.

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: 00:21:38

Jon: You have done that

in the past, I know.

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: 00:21:40

Even in your college days, right?

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: 00:21:43

Markiesha: Yes, I did some

improvisational theater.

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: 00:21:45

It helped.

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: 00:21:46

I have

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: 00:21:49

Jon: moments like these.

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: 00:21:50

I wish I had that background, too.

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: 00:21:52

So, you know, the other thing I'm kind

of curious about, Markiesha, is you're

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: 00:21:56

totally unashamed about your faith.

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: 00:22:00

You talk about it in your

book, you have quotations from

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: 00:22:04

scriptures, you paraphrase.

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: 00:22:06

You have an NIV according to Markiesha,

something like that at the end of

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: 00:22:11

it I know your faith has sustained

you through so many difficult times.

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: 00:22:16

How else has your life experience

or your faith as a Christian woman,

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: 00:22:23

kind of informed your spiritual life?

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: 00:22:25

Yeah,

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: 00:22:26

Markiesha: it, it is.

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: 00:22:27

It is my, my Christian walk

is my whole hope for tomorrow.

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: 00:22:35

It's what gets me through.

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: 00:22:37

It's my source of strength.

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: 00:22:39

It is my blueprint for living.

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: 00:22:42

It is my source of joy.

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: 00:22:46

It is everything to me, right?

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: 00:22:49

If I can just tell you one little thing

about the TED Talk, when there's a rule,

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: 00:22:53

you can't bring up God in a TED Talk.

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: 00:22:56

Wow.

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: 00:22:59

And they said that is one of the

many reasons why TED Talks don't

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: 00:23:03

get published because you can do

one and they don't publish them all.

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: 00:23:06

I was, I felt blessed that they published

mine, but you cannot mention God.

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: 00:23:12

And at first I was like,

I don't want to do it.

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: 00:23:16

How am I going to not say God?

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: 00:23:19

And I heard God say, listen,

you gotta get the word out.

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: 00:23:24

This is, these are ways to get the

word out without getting the word out.

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: 00:23:27

Right?

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: 00:23:28

People will watch mine

and then they'll find me.

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: 00:23:31

And then they'll find what would sustain

me through my childhood, through trauma,

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: 00:23:37

through the death of two parents.

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: 00:23:39

You'll find that it was

God that enabled me to.

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: 00:23:42

become successful when I shouldn't have

been, when I graduated college early.

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: 00:23:47

You'll find it was God that enabled

me to be the only Black woman

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: 00:23:53

in these spaces and be respected

and make it through disrespect.

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: 00:23:58

You'll find that it was God in

everything that I have done.

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: 00:24:01

So I took the opportunity to do the

TED Talk to speak without saying

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: 00:24:07

God, but He's everything to me.

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: 00:24:12

I, you know, when he says I

am, he was talking Markiesha.

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: 00:24:15

I am whatever Markiesha needs.

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: 00:24:16

That was just for me, y'all.

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: 00:24:24

Lauren: You don't have to say

God to share the divine presence

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: 00:24:29

because you are the divine presence.

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: 00:24:31

Markiesha: Thank you.

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: 00:24:33

Yeah.

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: 00:24:33

I feel the same about you guys.

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: 00:24:35

It's true.

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: 00:24:37

Jon: Thanks so much I do want to just kind

of and I have it right here, Markiesha.

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: 00:24:42

This is your book.

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: 00:24:46

Oh, that looks familiar!

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: 00:24:47

It looks familiar.

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: 00:24:47

It's called, it's got a very long

subtitle, like most books have these days.

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: 00:24:51

It's called, In the Climb, Eight

Audacious Actions to Overcome Life and

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: 00:24:57

Climb the Corporate Ladder with Joy.

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: 00:25:01

There's that joy message again.

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: 00:25:02

And, is this a bird of paradise on there?

404

: 00:25:05

Markiesha: It sure is.

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: 00:25:07

Yes, there's a story behind

the cover of the book.

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: 00:25:10

Yeah,

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: 00:25:10

Jon: please, I love the cover.

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: 00:25:12

Markiesha: Oh, yes.

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: 00:25:13

So I had, you know, in the

book that I lived in St.

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: 00:25:17

Thomas.

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: 00:25:18

So I asked one of my friend's

daughters who was studying art at

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: 00:25:22

Parsons to paint the cover of my book.

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: 00:25:26

She interviewed me, asked me

about the book, and at that time

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: 00:25:28

I had barely written anything.

415

: 00:25:30

I didn't know anything that I

was going to put in the book.

416

: 00:25:33

And then she started to ask me to send

a couple of pictures, and so I did.

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: 00:25:39

And then she started to ask me what

the favorite flower of my mother was

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: 00:25:46

and the favorite flower of my niece.

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: 00:25:50

And she knew the favorite flower

of a gentleman named Fletcher,

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: 00:25:53

for whom I thank in the book.

421

: 00:25:56

And that was the bird of paradise.

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: 00:26:00

And so the flowers on the book and

throughout the book are intentional,

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: 00:26:06

and they are symbolic of people.

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: 00:26:08

The white calla lily, my

mother's favorite flower.

425

: 00:26:13

The purple flower, which I can

never remember the name of, is my

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: 00:26:15

niece's flat favorite and the pink

calla lily is my favorite flower.

427

: 00:26:21

So that's the story behind

the cover of the book.

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: 00:26:25

Jon: It's beautiful and it's actually

quite a, a beautiful painting.

429

: 00:26:29

Markiesha: Yes, it's hanging

in my living room right now.

430

: 00:26:32

Jon: There's your pink.

431

: 00:26:34

Yeah, fantastic.

432

: 00:26:36

I love it.

433

: 00:26:37

Good.

434

: 00:26:37

So let's see Markiesha I feel

so connected to you today.

435

: 00:26:41

And this, I also feel like this is

one of those times where, I, I look

436

: 00:26:44

at Lauren and afterwards and say,

we've been on holy ground here.

437

: 00:26:47

I should have taken my shoes off.

438

: 00:26:50

Amazing.

439

: 00:26:52

I thoroughly enjoyed this.

440

: 00:26:53

I'm just wondering though, I'm sure

there are people that are going to want

441

: 00:26:56

to reach out to you, they're going to

read the book, they're going to want

442

: 00:26:59

to contact you or learn more about you.

443

: 00:27:02

How can they do that?

444

: 00:27:04

Markiesha: Awesome.

445

: 00:27:04

Well, sure, the book, In the Climb, is

on Amazon, and the audiobook version

446

: 00:27:09

just came out last month on Audible.

447

: 00:27:13

The cover is different on that one.

448

: 00:27:15

Intentionally, by the way, I took

off my face so Johns would look at it

449

: 00:27:19

and say, Hey, I might want this book.

450

: 00:27:23

Jon: Beautiful,

451

: 00:27:23

Markiesha: beautiful.

452

: 00:27:25

So that's on Amazon.

453

: 00:27:26

On Instagram, you can go on there.

454

: 00:27:30

I mean, look, I'm not a big Instagram

person, but it's Wilson Chapman Coaches.

455

: 00:27:35

C O A C H E S at the Ann

Wilson Chapman Coaches.

456

: 00:27:38

My website is wilson chapman,

C H A P M A N dot com.

457

: 00:27:45

And that's really the best way to get me.

458

: 00:27:47

But if you want to shoot me

an email, it's Pursue Joy.

459

: 00:27:51

at wilson chapman.

460

: 00:27:54

com

461

: 00:27:54

Jon: Oh, amazing.

462

: 00:27:55

Great.

463

: 00:27:56

And we'll put all those

links in our show notes.

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: 00:27:59

So our viewers and listeners can find

them easily and, and get to you easily.

465

: 00:28:04

So, Markiesha, thanks.

466

: 00:28:05

I've just, I've just really

enjoyed our conversation today.

467

: 00:28:08

This has been great.

468

: 00:28:10

Markiesha: Me too.

469

: 00:28:10

It's been such a thrill to meet you

both and share this time with you.

470

: 00:28:15

I hope your listeners are.

471

: 00:28:17

Continue to be blessed by your podcast

and thank you for what you're doing.

472

: 00:28:21

Bad news is on 24 seven on about 40

percent of the channels that we watch

473

: 00:28:27

and good news is almost never ever on.

474

: 00:28:30

So I love that you all are doing

this for the kingdom and I appreciate

475

: 00:28:35

the opportunity to be a part of it.

476

: 00:28:36

Lauren: Markiesha, before

we leave, you have shared so

477

: 00:28:42

much wisdom with us already.

478

: 00:28:44

Is there anything else

you would like to share?

479

: 00:28:50

Markiesha: Sure.

480

: 00:28:51

It is that in all that you do, remember

that someone needs exactly what you have.

481

: 00:29:01

And all that you become, remember.

482

: 00:29:04

to still make time to give that thing

that only you have to other people.

483

: 00:29:11

That's all I got.

484

: 00:29:13

That was, thank you.

485

: 00:29:17

Jon: Yes.

486

: 00:29:18

Thanks so much.

487

: 00:29:19

Markiesha: Thank you.

488

: 00:29:20

What a joy this has been.

489

: 00:29:23

I hope I get to come on again.

490

: 00:29:25

Jon: Listen, we're going to do

another series next year, so

491

: 00:29:28

we would love to have you back.

492

: 00:29:31

Lauren: Jon and I also want to

thank all those who are watching

493

: 00:29:34

and listening with us today.

494

: 00:29:36

We cannot do this without your

participation, so please take a

495

: 00:29:41

moment to comment, like, and share

on all your social media sites.

496

: 00:29:47

And again, thank you for the

gift of your time with us today.

497

: 00:29:51

Until next time, peace and blessings.

498

: 00:29:58

Jon: Good news is being brought

to you by Listening for Clues.

499

: 00:30:02

You can find us on our

website, listeningforclues.

500

: 00:30:05

com, our YouTube channel, our

Vimeo channel, and just about every

501

: 00:30:10

podcast platform that there is.

502

: 00:30:12

Hope to see you soon.