Spiritual Direction with Peter Watkins

Jon: 00:00:12

Welcome to Good News, brought to you by Listening for Clues.

Lauren: 00:00:15

We are Lauren Welch and Jon Shematek Deacons in the

Lauren: 00:00:19

Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

Jon: 00:00:21

We sure are, and we're so glad you're here with us today.

Jon: 00:00:24

We have a special guest with us today who is Peter Watkins.

Jon: 00:00:29

Peter is a spiritual director, retreat leader, and faculty member at Sacred

Jon: 00:00:34

Ground Center for Spirituality, a school for the formation of

Jon: 00:00:39

aspiring spiritual directors.

Jon: 00:00:42

Peter has taught graduate level classes in Old Testament theology and

Jon: 00:00:47

adolescent psychology and spirituality.

Jon: 00:00:50

And has co-authored a high school textbook "Guarding the Fire, A

Jon: 00:00:55

Spiritual Guide for Young Men."

Jon: 00:00:58

through Good Ground Press.

Jon: 00:01:00

He's also certified to give the Ignatian spiritual exercises.

Jon: 00:01:04

As a former high school philosophy and theology teacher of 30 years, Peter,

Jon: 00:01:10

especially loved leading student justice trips to Guatemala and pilgrimages

Jon: 00:01:16

on the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Jon: 00:01:19

Peter is a lifelong runner, father of three sons, and loves

Jon: 00:01:25

playing the guitar and banjo.

Jon: 00:01:27

Welcome Peter.

Peter: 00:01:29

Thank you.

Peter: 00:01:29

Thanks for having me.

Peter: 00:01:30

It's great to be here.

Lauren: 00:01:32

It's great to have you with us today, Peter.

Lauren: 00:01:34

Thank you again for being here.

Lauren: 00:01:36

Personally, I believe that spiritual direction as a spiritual

Lauren: 00:01:41

tool is a best kept secret.

Lauren: 00:01:43

So would you share with us your definition of spiritual direction and what or who

Lauren: 00:01:50

inspired you to be a spiritual director?

Peter: 00:01:54

Sure.

Peter: 00:01:55

Yeah, I really like what you said about spiritual direction

Peter: 00:01:58

being the best kept secret.

Peter: 00:02:00

And I think it's really growing quite a bit as people understand sort

Peter: 00:02:05

of what it is and some of the, the kind of the myths around it or just

Peter: 00:02:10

what, what is this kind of thing.

Peter: 00:02:11

So I'm happy to clarify that.

Peter: 00:02:13

Spiritual direction is, a process usually between a spiritual

Peter: 00:02:19

director and the directee.

Peter: 00:02:20

And the directee and the director.

Peter: 00:02:24

And, , it's funny, even because of the words director, a number of

Peter: 00:02:28

people prefer the word a companion or a soul companion or someone who

Peter: 00:02:33

accompanies so the director, that that phrase can feel like it's a little

Peter: 00:02:39

bit top down, like people will come expecting a formula or an answer.

Peter: 00:02:45

And really what spiritual direction is, it's about deep listening.

Peter: 00:02:50

And so as a director, I practice listening to what we call the directee, the

Peter: 00:02:56

person receiving spiritual direction.

Peter: 00:02:59

And then the two of us will listen to nudges from the Spirit, from God in

Peter: 00:03:05

getting a sense of where God is calling.

Peter: 00:03:09

In spiritual direction.

Peter: 00:03:10

People will ask all kinds of questions, sometimes about life

Peter: 00:03:15

direction or meaning purpose.

Peter: 00:03:19

Sometimes they'll be going through transitions and will need just someone

Peter: 00:03:23

to kind of bounce things off of.

Peter: 00:03:25

Oftentimes it's about prayer experiences and how to expand prayer.

Peter: 00:03:31

I like to think of this, the purpose of spiritual direction as the directee

Peter: 00:03:36

finding an inner freedom in life.

Peter: 00:03:39

So I, I'll keep, I could keep going there, but let me stop because I wanna make

Peter: 00:03:43

sure that you have a chance to speak too.

Peter: 00:03:46

I don't wanna monopolize everything here.

Jon: 00:03:50

So, Peter, this is this is a little, the reverse of spiritual direction

Jon: 00:03:54

because normally you're the listener and now we're here intently listening

Jon: 00:03:59

and, and kinda hanging on every word..

Peter: 00:04:01

It's a little strange.

Peter: 00:04:02

Like, oh, I have to talk.

Peter: 00:04:03

Yeah.

Jon: 00:04:04

It's a different role.

Jon: 00:04:06

So I, I am kind of curious.

Jon: 00:04:08

I don't think I ever asked you, you're, you are my spiritual director.

Jon: 00:04:11

I should probably disclose that to folks.

Jon: 00:04:14

I don't think I ever asked you or found out from you how you

Jon: 00:04:18

actually got started in this.

Jon: 00:04:19

I think Lauren was kind of starting to get at that too, but we're very curious

Jon: 00:04:23

about what is it that happened for you, or who is, did someone inspire you?

Jon: 00:04:27

Was there an event?

Jon: 00:04:29

How did this all come about for you to become a, spiritual companion?

Peter: 00:04:35

Well when I was working on my Master of Divinity degree part of

Peter: 00:04:38

that was doing what they call C P E which is where I was doing hospital

Peter: 00:04:43

chaplaincy and I found that the academic theology very important.

Peter: 00:04:50

I loved it.

Peter: 00:04:51

But this is really where the rubber hit the road was when I was really

Peter: 00:04:55

experiencing that direct connection with folks who were oftentimes

Peter: 00:05:00

in pain and asking big questions.

Peter: 00:05:03

And I thought, this is really where I experienced God.

Peter: 00:05:08

As I'm listening and being a chaplain in, the hospital.

Peter: 00:05:13

So that was one thing and that was sort of in my early thirties.

Peter: 00:05:17

And then as you mentioned in the bio, one of the things I loved to

Peter: 00:05:21

do was to take high school students.

Peter: 00:05:24

I was a high school teacher in a Catholic school for about 30 years

Peter: 00:05:27

teaching theology and philosophy.

Peter: 00:05:31

And in the summers I led four different groups on the Camino de Santiago.

Peter: 00:05:36

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:05:36

And what I found was that the best kind of teaching was really accompaniment

Peter: 00:05:43

walking with and loved that.

Peter: 00:05:47

And I loved instead of being in the role of the sage on the stage, you know,

Peter: 00:05:51

the chalk and the talk kind of stuff.

Peter: 00:05:53

I was just walking with folks and asking questions and found that there

Peter: 00:05:56

was a great deal of learning there.

Peter: 00:05:58

There was a spiritual direction formation program in the Twin Cities

Peter: 00:06:02

where I live and was just curious.

Peter: 00:06:05

And I went for a few classes, didn't really know if I wanted to

Peter: 00:06:08

be a spiritual director, but was sort of hooked and found that that

Peter: 00:06:12

really, was where God was calling me.

Jon: 00:06:16

Wow.

Jon: 00:06:16

Great.

Jon: 00:06:17

So and just to, just to kind of clarify, you see this as a vocation

Jon: 00:06:22

and a call , from God, but not a call to ordained ministry.

Jon: 00:06:26

Is that right?

Peter: 00:06:27

Right.

Peter: 00:06:28

Yeah.

Peter: 00:06:28

When I think about what priests and you all as deacons do, I'm like, oh my God.

Peter: 00:06:33

That is just, I really appreciate the, the one-on-one.

Peter: 00:06:38

The deep conversations and that's where I I like to be.

Peter: 00:06:42

Yeah.

Jon: 00:06:43

Yeah.

Jon: 00:06:44

And, and so what I, I guess I was kind of getting at, and Lauren, I

Jon: 00:06:47

don't know to what extent you think this is true, but at least I think

Jon: 00:06:51

in it may be pretty generally true.

Jon: 00:06:53

Peter, you, you probably have an idea about this too, is that , I think a

Jon: 00:06:56

lot of folks, at least that I know, think that spiritual direction is

Jon: 00:07:00

pretty much for people who are ordained or who are trying to, or discern

Jon: 00:07:05

a path toward ordained ministry.

Jon: 00:07:07

And I'd be interested in what you think about that.

Peter: 00:07:11

Yeah, most of my directees are lay people and and certainly we all

Peter: 00:07:16

have a call whether we're ordained or not, to our baptismal covenant.

Peter: 00:07:21

And that's, that's the most important thing, I think.

Peter: 00:07:24

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:07:25

Yeah, absolutely.

Peter: 00:07:27

And I have folks who are humanist, kind of agnostic as well.

Peter: 00:07:32

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:07:32

Who are really searching for a sense of meaning and purpose in life.

Peter: 00:07:38

So it doesn't always have to be you know, churchy kind of talk can be.

Peter: 00:07:44

Yeah.

Peter: 00:07:45

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:07:45

Sometimes that's the best.

Lauren: 00:07:48

Peter, what surprises you about spiritual direction when

Lauren: 00:07:52

you're accompanying someone?

Peter: 00:07:56

Hmm, great question.

Peter: 00:07:59

I'm always surprised.

Peter: 00:08:01

One of the models that I really like for thinking about what spiritual

Peter: 00:08:05

direction is, is sort of like a marriage counselor where there are two seats.

Peter: 00:08:10

There's the Directee and then the Holy Spirit or the Divine.

Peter: 00:08:14

And it's like, as a marriage counselor, you, you don't want to be spending your

Peter: 00:08:18

whole time talking to the couple, right?

Peter: 00:08:20

You wanna have them talk to each other.

Peter: 00:08:23

And so what, well, what is the spirit saying to you, or

Peter: 00:08:26

what is that like for you?

Peter: 00:08:27

And And then also kind of listening to the subtext or some of the deeper kinds

Peter: 00:08:33

of things that the, Directee is saying.

Peter: 00:08:36

And so I, I shouldn't be surprised at this point.

Peter: 00:08:41

You think I wouldn't be, but it's like this Spirit shows up

Peter: 00:08:45

in sometimes surprising ways.

Peter: 00:08:47

It's like, oh, there you are, you were here the whole time kind of thing.

Peter: 00:08:51

And there's something beautiful about spiritual direction.

Peter: 00:08:53

I, I also think of it as like Almost kind of sacramental in a way.

Peter: 00:08:59

You know, it's a ritual where, where two people and, the spirit enter into

Peter: 00:09:04

this sacred space and we're vulnerable.

Peter: 00:09:09

And then we, we ask questions and we reflect and In that way, I, I

Peter: 00:09:15

find that there's oftentimes some something that changes or switches.

Peter: 00:09:19

There's a new perspective.

Peter: 00:09:21

Sometimes there's a, an inspiration.

Peter: 00:09:24

Sometimes we just go deeper into the questions kind of thing.

Peter: 00:09:27

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:09:28

So that surprises me.

Peter: 00:09:29

I'm also surprised at my own shortcomings, which are many That they, I can kind

Peter: 00:09:37

of give myself a break a little bit and just realize that the directee will

Peter: 00:09:41

say, no, no, you're, you're off on that.

Peter: 00:09:44

That's not right.

Peter: 00:09:45

You know it.

Peter: 00:09:45

I think it's more this and that.

Peter: 00:09:47

At first, when I was first starting, I was like, oh, I didn't do that.

Peter: 00:09:49

Right.

Peter: 00:09:50

But I'm just a lot more forgiving and I find that that helps too

Peter: 00:09:53

with the Spirit showing up.

Peter: 00:09:57

Yeah.

Peter: 00:09:58

You asked me too about different inspirations and one of the things that

Peter: 00:10:02

I love about the training that I received it is, Ignatian, which means that it

Peter: 00:10:08

was inspired by Ignatius of Loyola.

Peter: 00:10:13

Who was many of you know, is a 16th century Spanish soldier who had

Peter: 00:10:18

a amazing conversion experience.

Peter: 00:10:22

But, I would say his superpower would be that he could discern God's will for

Peter: 00:10:30

him and could sort of teach other people how to develop this kind of intuition.

Peter: 00:10:38

And I suppose, when people ask you what would be your superpower, that would

Peter: 00:10:41

be a pretty good one to have, right.

Peter: 00:10:43

And he talked about just kind of feeling deeply in the heart and the soul, a sense

Peter: 00:10:49

of either consolation or desolation.

Peter: 00:10:52

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:10:52

And for him, it's you know, we're always moving.

Peter: 00:10:56

One way or the other.

Peter: 00:10:57

And to move, to get a sense of wait, would, is this decision moving me

Peter: 00:11:02

towards God, towards life and love?

Peter: 00:11:05

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:11:06

Or is it moving me away from it?

Peter: 00:11:08

And it's not always so easy on the surface to discern that.

Peter: 00:11:13

And I love kind of working with folks around asking that que

Peter: 00:11:18

the questions of discernment.

Lauren: 00:11:20

So when you do the spiritual exercises, there's several

Lauren: 00:11:23

different ways to doing them.

Lauren: 00:11:25

I mean, it's not just a 30 day, week retreat.

Lauren: 00:11:27

Can you say what are the different ways you do these spiritual exercises?

Peter: 00:11:34

Sure.

Peter: 00:11:35

Yeah, there are different ways.

Peter: 00:11:37

Not everybody can just up and leave and Do a 30 day retreat out in a retreat center.

Peter: 00:11:44

So Ignatius realized that.

Peter: 00:11:46

And so he also had the possibility of lay folks meeting with the spiritual

Peter: 00:11:51

director once a week, but they would spend about an hour or more a day in

Peter: 00:11:56

their regular lives doing the exercises.

Peter: 00:11:59

It was kind of an initiation for the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits, and

Peter: 00:12:05

they would undergo that and it's a powerful, transformative experience.

Peter: 00:12:11

So the exercises would be there are sort of four quote unquote weeks.

Peter: 00:12:17

That a person would undergo.

Peter: 00:12:19

The first thing though is to really have a sense of God's love for you.

Peter: 00:12:25

And then it's a kind of a going down, looking at the things that keep us

Peter: 00:12:29

from God and then a coming back up accompanying Jesus using scripture.

Peter: 00:12:34

And again, getting a sense of my purpose in life and and

Peter: 00:12:39

what God is hoping for you.

Peter: 00:12:43

So there's a lot more to say about the spiritual exercise.

Peter: 00:12:46

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:12:46

But it really is powerful and I hope people will look into to doing them.

Jon: 00:12:52

Right.

Jon: 00:12:53

That being said certainly just to kind of underline what you said a little

Jon: 00:12:57

earlier, spiritual direction is not necessarily for folks that belong

Jon: 00:13:01

to a particular or any religion no.

Jon: 00:13:04

So for people who have zero experience with spiritual

Jon: 00:13:07

direction, Peter, how does it work?

Jon: 00:13:10

What's the commitment that people need to make to one another?

Jon: 00:13:13

Is it, you, you say it's one-on-one, is that usually the case, that it's a

Jon: 00:13:17

one-on-one relationship or whereas , I've heard people talk about group spiritual

Jon: 00:13:21

direction, which I think must be a completely different kind of experience.

Jon: 00:13:25

Right,

Peter: 00:13:25

right.

Peter: 00:13:26

Right.

Peter: 00:13:26

Yeah.

Peter: 00:13:27

So one of the things people ask is, well, if I was interested in that,

Peter: 00:13:31

how would I find a spiritual director?

Peter: 00:13:33

Yes.

Peter: 00:13:34

There's a wonderful group called Spiritual Directors International, if

Peter: 00:13:38

you just Google that there's a long list of spiritual directors it's

Peter: 00:13:43

important to think about whether you would like to be in person or on Zoom.

Peter: 00:13:49

And you know, initially when we started doing zoom spiritual

Peter: 00:13:53

direction, I was dubious.

Peter: 00:13:55

I thought, oh, you know, I, being in person I think is just much better.

Peter: 00:14:00

I can read body language, there's just a feel, and, and that's

Peter: 00:14:04

true, but I'm surprised at how good Zoom can be actually.

Peter: 00:14:09

And it also opens you up to being able to find lots of different

Peter: 00:14:13

spiritual directors that can match.

Peter: 00:14:16

And it's good for folks who are in rural areas as well, where there might

Peter: 00:14:20

not be as many spiritual doctors.

Peter: 00:14:22

So finding a a spiritual director and then just meeting with her or

Peter: 00:14:27

him and getting a sense of a feel would this be a good fit or not?

Peter: 00:14:33

I know when my spiritual director retired of about 10 years, I

Peter: 00:14:37

thought, oh, what am I gonna do?

Peter: 00:14:38

I actually went to three different folks before I really had a sense

Peter: 00:14:44

of, this is the person for me.

Peter: 00:14:46

So it's, it's difficult to do, but I think well worth it, well worth it.

Peter: 00:14:52

And people ask me, you know, can you find a spiritual director for me?

Peter: 00:14:55

And I will Give three or four names and say, make sure you talk

Peter: 00:14:59

to this person and this person.

Peter: 00:15:01

And I'll give a little bit of introduction to them, but the first

Peter: 00:15:04

meeting I think is important for that.

Peter: 00:15:06

And then to just ask questions like, what would this be like?

Peter: 00:15:10

I usually meet directees once a month, which feels pretty good.

Peter: 00:15:16

Though I do have some folks who will just kind of wanna meet maybe once in

Peter: 00:15:21

Advent, once in Lent kind of thing.

Peter: 00:15:24

Just to kind of kick that off, I've got a couple other people that I

Peter: 00:15:27

hear from maybe three or four times.

Peter: 00:15:31

A year . And then I won't hear from them for a while, and then a

Peter: 00:15:34

couple years later they'll say, oh, I'd really like to have spiritual.

Peter: 00:15:37

So it really is up to the person I really like that regular

Peter: 00:15:42

once a month kind of thing.

Peter: 00:15:44

So, you know, a person might say, oh, I don't really have a lot to talk about.

Peter: 00:15:48

Not much has happened.

Peter: 00:15:49

And then all of a sudden we're in a direction session like, wow, there's

Peter: 00:15:52

actually a lot happening here.

Peter: 00:15:54

And so I like that regularity.

Peter: 00:15:56

Usually during a session I'll ask a person how they like to begin.

Peter: 00:15:59

Sometimes we'll begin in silence.

Peter: 00:16:01

Sometimes we'll read a psalm or I'll have a prayer kind of thing, and then I'll just

Peter: 00:16:06

ask, so what's, what's on your heart?

Peter: 00:16:09

What's, what's coming up for you?

Peter: 00:16:11

And and then usually , I find oftentimes a lot is said in this first two minutes.

Peter: 00:16:18

And I'll, try and remember especially the, exact words that

Peter: 00:16:21

they used so that I can come back to them and and remind them of that.

Peter: 00:16:27

And and then usually there are stories, there's questions and the, the one thing

Peter: 00:16:33

that a lot of spiritual directors will do in the beginning is , they'll think,

Peter: 00:16:38

oh, I really am here to help people.

Peter: 00:16:40

Right.

Peter: 00:16:41

I want to help them.

Peter: 00:16:43

You know, it's like, yeah, of course you want to be helpful.

Peter: 00:16:45

But trying to fix folks or trying to give them advice or answer

Peter: 00:16:50

them is not usually very helpful.

Peter: 00:16:53

Unless it is directly asked.

Peter: 00:16:55

It's like, okay, so what do you think?

Peter: 00:16:57

And then we can go at that.

Peter: 00:16:59

And so what I try and do is do more kind of evocative questions, trying

Peter: 00:17:04

to evoke a deeper sense of, so what's brought you to this place?

Peter: 00:17:08

Where , do you feel a sense of faith, hope and love?

Peter: 00:17:13

Where do you feel a sense of consolation?

Peter: 00:17:15

Where does it feel absent from you?

Peter: 00:17:17

Have you experienced this before?

Peter: 00:17:20

What was that like?

Peter: 00:17:21

So if, you didn't have this burden that you're talking about or, or if

Peter: 00:17:27

you were able to kind of work through this, what would that feel like?

Peter: 00:17:30

What would that be like?

Peter: 00:17:31

So they feel sort of general, questions and then we kind of move towards

Peter: 00:17:36

honing in on what the issue is.

Peter: 00:17:39

The other thing that I found to be really helpful is I'll ask you,

Peter: 00:17:43

so what does that, is it, what does that feel like in your body?

Peter: 00:17:47

Oh, I feel it hard here.

Peter: 00:17:48

Sometimes.

Peter: 00:17:49

People say, my shoulders, I'm just carrying this, you know, or or I've

Peter: 00:17:54

got this kind of monkey mind where it just won't stop, kinda thing, you know?

Peter: 00:17:57

It just keeps going and going, going, so we'll talk about that and,

Peter: 00:18:00

and get a sense of how God might be in that working through helping us.

Peter: 00:18:07

There's always the presupposition that God is there.

Peter: 00:18:12

That God is working with us.

Peter: 00:18:15

God has always been here.

Peter: 00:18:16

And so it really is about seeing and opening our eyes.

Peter: 00:18:20

I love Mary Oliver in one of her poems, she says, I don't really know what prayer

Peter: 00:18:24

is, but I do know how to pay attention.

Peter: 00:18:29

And so, so much of spiritual direction and spirituality is about paying

Peter: 00:18:33

attention to our bodies, to our feelings, our emotions, our thoughts,

Peter: 00:18:39

and having someone to, walk with you as you do that can be, helpful.

Jon: 00:18:47

And I'm guessing this be a question I think people should ask of

Jon: 00:18:50

their potential spiritual directors, are you in direction yourself?

Jon: 00:18:53

Because I'm just thinking about how intense that work can be.

Jon: 00:18:59

And to me, the experience sometimes it feels like, if you think about

Jon: 00:19:03

the story of Jesus and the woman with the hemorrhages, and when she touched

Jon: 00:19:06

his robe, he felt the energy go out.

Jon: 00:19:09

And sometimes I think when you're really in a intense listening,

Jon: 00:19:12

Situation with someone, it's just kind of something is leaving you.

Jon: 00:19:17

I mean, it's just, it's, it takes energy.

Jon: 00:19:20

And so it's, I think, important if you are a spiritual director,

Jon: 00:19:23

that you are in a spiritual direction relationship with someone.

Peter: 00:19:27

That's a very important question to ask a potential director.

Peter: 00:19:32

The other question to ask is, have you done a formation program?

Peter: 00:19:36

And what was the program like?

Peter: 00:19:38

SDI Spiritual Directors International made the decision, and I think it's a

Peter: 00:19:43

good one to not have a certification for spiritual directors because there are

Peter: 00:19:47

so many different ways of doing this.

Peter: 00:19:51

And to try to, define it and confine it didn't feel right.

Peter: 00:19:56

And yet there are suggestions for for, basic training.

Peter: 00:20:00

And , I also am a, faculty member on a training program here in the Twin Cities.

Peter: 00:20:05

And I know that there are some things, some programs that are kind of

Peter: 00:20:08

popping up that are maybe real quick, only, maybe a year kind of thing.

Peter: 00:20:13

So it really should at least be two year training program and then also

Peter: 00:20:18

some follow up with with internships and writing verbatims and, and being

Peter: 00:20:23

in peer supervision group as well.

Peter: 00:20:25

Or or facilitated supervision group initially.

Peter: 00:20:28

I think sometimes there are clergy who maybe have an M.Div.

Peter: 00:20:31

And they'll say, oh, well I can do that.

Peter: 00:20:34

I can sit and listen.

Peter: 00:20:35

It's like, mm.

Peter: 00:20:36

Careful that I do think there's some, there's something really

Peter: 00:20:41

important about being in spiritual direction yourself having had some

Peter: 00:20:45

some background in it, some training.

Peter: 00:20:48

I think there are some people who are naturally very good at this, and I don't

Peter: 00:20:52

mean to say no one can, but I think when you're initially looking for someone,

Peter: 00:20:57

unless you know them really well, And you've got a good sense from them.

Peter: 00:21:01

I would look for that.

Peter: 00:21:02

Again, initially I would look for having a certificate from

Peter: 00:21:05

a, from a training program.

Peter: 00:21:08

Mm-hmm.

Jon: 00:21:09

Yeah.

Jon: 00:21:09

Makes sense.

Jon: 00:21:10

That makes a lot of sense.

Lauren: 00:21:12

Is there anything else you would like to, share?

Lauren: 00:21:16

Peter, this has been wonderful because I do think that everyone and

Lauren: 00:21:21

anyone can benefit from spiritual, companionship, or direction.

Lauren: 00:21:25

. You have hopefully inspired people to at least think about

Lauren: 00:21:29

it now, who may not have thought

Peter: 00:21:31

about it before.

Peter: 00:21:33

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:21:34

Yeah.

Peter: 00:21:34

I think you know, when people are doing spiritual direction a lot of

Peter: 00:21:40

times people say, well, I just don't know what I would talk about at all.

Peter: 00:21:44

And sometimes they'll think, well, I have a regular prayer

Peter: 00:21:47

practice and it's, it's been fine.

Peter: 00:21:50

, . Spiritual directors are not therapists.

Peter: 00:21:53

And if I do work with somebody who I feel is just really stuck or really

Peter: 00:22:00

in need of something deeper that can help them with their problems, I

Peter: 00:22:04

would, and I have referred folks for therapy, but even folks that are in

Peter: 00:22:08

therapy can do spiritual direction as well, which I think is important.

Peter: 00:22:13

And the other thing that I love is when folks come and say, let me

Peter: 00:22:18

tell you all the good things that are happening in my life right now.

Peter: 00:22:21

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:22:21

You know, and and what I'm so thankful for or and sometimes people will say,

Peter: 00:22:27

I don't really know what I want, and I don't even know the questions to ask.

Peter: 00:22:33

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:22:33

And that's a wonderful place to start.

Peter: 00:22:36

You know, rather than, than having the answers and feeling like, oh,

Peter: 00:22:39

I've got this and this and this, you know, all done kind of thing.

Peter: 00:22:43

And that sense of humility, I find too that talking about different

Peter: 00:22:47

prayer practices can be important,

Peter: 00:22:50

so here's how you, pray with scripture, or here's maybe a prayer

Peter: 00:22:54

at the end of the day that can help you to reflect on your life.

Peter: 00:22:58

Or have you considered doing a weekend retreat?

Peter: 00:23:01

Here are some resources for you.

Peter: 00:23:03

What kind of support do you have?

Peter: 00:23:06

And sometimes we'll talk about relationships and the things that are,

Peter: 00:23:10

are helpful or not helpful in them.

Peter: 00:23:13

So yeah, I don't know what else, what other questions you might

Peter: 00:23:16

have about spiritual direction.

Lauren: 00:23:20

Do you find that sometimes people might come to you with a

Lauren: 00:23:23

with, with something that they think has nothing to do with spirituality

Lauren: 00:23:27

and yet it is a deeply spiritual crisis or concern that's going on?

Peter: 00:23:35

So what would be an example?

Peter: 00:23:37

Lauren, can you think of something?

Lauren: 00:23:39

Well, some, I mean, just somebody who is coming that has

Lauren: 00:23:43

things going on with the family.

Peter: 00:23:45

Yeah.

Peter: 00:23:46

Yeah.

Peter: 00:23:46

You know sometimes when there's Dysfunction or suffering it can

Peter: 00:23:51

happen because the person has been taught something that's just not true.

Peter: 00:23:56

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:23:56

You know, for example I have to work really hard in order to earn

Peter: 00:24:01

God's love for God to love me.

Peter: 00:24:02

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:24:03

And they might not explicitly say that, but it is a kind of a belief that's

Peter: 00:24:08

been given to them, which is a lie.

Peter: 00:24:11

You know, God loves us unconditionally, which is true.

Peter: 00:24:15

And so being able to kind of unpack that can be helpful.

Peter: 00:24:19

Sometimes people will project a lot of of their own suffering or hurt

Peter: 00:24:24

onto other people because they haven't really worked through it themselves.

Peter: 00:24:28

So a spiritual director can help you name that.

Peter: 00:24:31

It's like, where does that come from and how has that been affecting you?

Peter: 00:24:35

And that can give them some freedom.

Peter: 00:24:38

We can also talk about having boundaries with other people

Peter: 00:24:40

and the importance of that.

Peter: 00:24:42

And you know, what, does a healthy relationship look like?

Peter: 00:24:46

From your point of view and from your partners as well.

Peter: 00:24:49

Naming those can be very freeing for folks.

Peter: 00:24:54

Sometimes we'll talk about shame.

Peter: 00:24:56

And how debilitating that can be and naming , those places of shame can be so

Peter: 00:25:03

helpful in liberating for folks and to have a safe place that is loving where

Peter: 00:25:10

they can feel God's spirit in that.

Peter: 00:25:14

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:25:15

So helping people name what's going on in their life is really

Lauren: 00:25:19

a big part of spiritual direction.

Peter: 00:25:22

I think so.

Peter: 00:25:23

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:25:24

Absolutely.

Peter: 00:25:25

Absolutely.

Peter: 00:25:26

It's like, oh, this is what's happening.

Peter: 00:25:28

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:25:28

Oh, okay.

Peter: 00:25:30

And oh, I have these resources and oh wait, God has been here with me

Peter: 00:25:36

in this darkness, and I can see now how God has been working with me.

Peter: 00:25:40

Mm-hmm.

Peter: 00:25:43

Getting that perspective.

Peter: 00:25:44

Yeah.

Peter: 00:25:44

Yeah.

Jon: 00:25:45

Yeah.

Jon: 00:25:46

Yeah.

Jon: 00:25:47

Well, Peter, this has been absolutely great.

Jon: 00:25:49

I've, I've loved every minute of it.

Jon: 00:25:51

You've definitely, you've covered such a broad strokes

Jon: 00:25:54

here on on spiritual direction.

Jon: 00:25:56

I think giving our viewers and listeners a lot to think about, we'll certainly

Jon: 00:26:00

put the link to the directory of International Spiritual Director site

Jon: 00:26:04

that you mentioned in the show notes.

Jon: 00:26:06

Would it be okay if we also put your website in, in case people want to get to

Jon: 00:26:10

know you a little better or contact you?

Jon: 00:26:12

Absolutely.

Jon: 00:26:13

Would love that.

Jon: 00:26:13

Yeah.

Jon: 00:26:14

Because I know you I don't know if you still are available for

Jon: 00:26:17

spiritual direction, but I know you do retreats, you do spiritual

Jon: 00:26:20

direction and all kinds of cool stuff.

Jon: 00:26:22

So I, I definitely want to have.

Jon: 00:26:24

People able to reach you.

Peter: 00:26:25

Absolutely.

Peter: 00:26:26

I'd be happy to do that.

Peter: 00:26:27

Of course.

Jon: 00:26:27

Perfect.

Jon: 00:26:28

Perfect.

Jon: 00:26:29

Well, great.

Jon: 00:26:30

Well once again thanks for, thanks again for being here with us today.

Jon: 00:26:34

We, we do appreciate it.

Peter: 00:26:36

I really appreciate being able to to talk with you all

Peter: 00:26:39

about something I really love.

Peter: 00:26:40

So thanks.

Lauren: 00:26:43

It was really good to have you, Peter, and Jon, and I also want to thank

Lauren: 00:26:47

all who are watching and listening today because we cannot do this to spread the

Lauren: 00:26:53

good news without your participation.

Lauren: 00:26:56

Please take a moment to comment, like, and share this good

Lauren: 00:27:01

news with even more people.

Lauren: 00:27:04

Again, thank you for the gift of your time.

Lauren: 00:27:07

Until next time, peace and blessings.

Jon: 00:27:12

Good news is being brought to you by listening for clues.

Jon: 00:27:16

You can find us on our website, listeningforclues.com, our YouTube

Jon: 00:27:21

channel or Vimeo channel, and just about every podcast platform that there is.