The Art and Power of Preaching with David Schlafer

Lynn Shematek: 00:00:00

Oh

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Hello, friends.

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I'm Lynn Shematek with the Good News Team.

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Today let's meet the Reverend Dr.

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David Schlafer, philosopher,

priest, preacher, and teacher.

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Join our co-host Deacons Jon Shematek

and Lauren Welch as we bring you another

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episode of Good News, all about people

making a difference in the world.

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Jon Shematek: Welcome David

Schlafer to the podcast.

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Good News.

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We're really thrilled that

you're joining us today.

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Lauren Welch: We're really

happy to have you, David.

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We have waited for this

day for a long time.

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David Schlafer: it is a real joy for

me to connect with the two of you.

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I have the fondest memories over,

the span of, probably 15 years.

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Working with, deacons in the Deacon

Training school, helping them develop

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their preaching, and the two of you have

been, such rich and engaging colleagues.

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It's mighty fun to be back and having

seen several of these podcasts, it's a

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privilege and honor to join them really.

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Jon Shematek: Oh, thank you David.

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That's great.

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I've gotta say, Lauren and I were mentors

in the deacon formation program here

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when you were teaching to our students.

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But I learned more from

you about how to preach.

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you've been a guiding star for me

for so many years, and it's one

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of the things I really enjoy when

I get the chance to preach, here

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in Baltimore at the Cathedral.

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Thank you.

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tell us a bit about yourself, David,

and how you got to where you are today

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David Schlafer: In some ways, the

simplest, way to say who I am, what

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I do professionally, is to say that

in a previous vocational life, I

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went into philosophy because of bad

preaching and came into the teaching

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of preaching convinced that it doesn't

have to be bad or boring philosophy.

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To unpack that a little bit, I

am the son of a southern Baptist

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preacher who was himself born and

raised in New York, so not a typical.

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Southern Baptist preacher, he was

an exceedingly earnest preacher.

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Heavy on exegesis.

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Heavy on exhortation.

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Sincere and very boring.

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But every once in a while, into

town would ride an evangelist

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and we would have services every

night, Sunday through Saturday,

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unless it was a two week campaign.

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these.

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Evangelists would preach fire and

brimstone, which was terrifying and

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manipulating, and I really didn't want

to have very much to do with any of that.

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There's an additional dimension

here that may be worth, saying.

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my father, with an earned, theological,

doctorate degree, was very intelligent.

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But he had what, is sometimes

called a hermeneutic of assent.

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God said it.

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The Bible teaches it.

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I believe it.

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I want to understand and practice it.

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I came into life essentially with what's

called a hermeneutic of suspicion.

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Why should I believe it?

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The Bible says this here.

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It says that there, which

are you supposed to believe?

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there was this gentle clash

back and forth between us.

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When I went to college, my father insisted

that I go to a, strong Christian college.

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Which was Wheaton outside of Chicago.

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I went there kicking and screaming

because I really wanted to go to

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Northwestern and major in, pre-law.

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Wheaton was where I ended up.

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within the second, semester

of being there, I was in an

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introduction to philosophy course.

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The professor was absolutely

mesmerizing and, I found myself.

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trying to work my way toward faith.

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primarily by means of reason because

images and feelings had been so polluted

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in my background that I really didn't

want to have anything to do with them.

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But then, because of a change of job, we

started attending an Episcopal church.

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By this point I had read my

way into the necessity of a

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sacramental view of the universe.

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here was worship, which embodied that.

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and in which it was possible to

be, open to sense, open to emotion

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because it was not a manipulation

around the process of reason.

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Very early on, I, had the sense of,

wanting to be able to be behind the

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altar as a way of embodying for myself

the theology to which I had come

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My undergraduate teaching job dissolved

because, I had become an Episcopalian and,

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this college, was suspicious of those.

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So I ended up attending, Nashotah

House Episcopal Seminary and, very

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quickly, found myself, engaged

there, teaching in moral theology.

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I was invited to be part of a

beginning preaching class, and,

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found that I deeply loved it.

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very instrumental for me.

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is a, homiletics professor by the

name of Eugene Lowry, whose book

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"Doing Time in the Pulpit" made

a significant, impact upon me.

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suggesting that not all sermons are

stories, and yet, it is possible to

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shape a sermon in such a way that

it has a narrative quality to it.

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Taking.

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Listeners from a beginning point

on a journey, that leads, to

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some kind of fresh, recognition.

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that's the way I have, tried

to do my own preaching.

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It's the way I try to nurture people

who are studying preaching, with me.

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Which has been both in seminary classes,

in four different seminaries, in,

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preaching conferences here and in England

and Canada, in a fair degree of writing.

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And now what I'm spending most of my

professional time doing is coaching

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individual preachers some on a weekly

basis, some on an occasional basis, and

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some, back and forth with colleagues,

where we simply talk shop with each other.

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Jon Shematek: That's, quite, a journey

and you've published a number of,

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books on preaching that, I assume

people have actually read and are using

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some of the wisdom in those books.

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David Schlafer: the, topic of the first

one, pretty much says something about

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the background I just briefly described,

"Surviving the Sermon, a Guide to

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Preaching for Those Who Have to Listen."

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Preaching is primarily a listening

art You have to shape it in a way,

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that's different from, reading an

essay or looking at a still picture.

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You have to shape the sermon in a

way that takes people on the journey,

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that the interplay between the text.

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The congregation, and the culture,

and the time seemed to be leading.

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Lauren Welch: And David, one of the

books too, and I know that you always

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encouraged us to find our own voice.

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we don't have to preach like

David or Jon or whoever we have

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seen or heard in the past, but to

find our own voice, can you say.

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Something about that.

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David Schlafer: Yeah, I think the

book that, followed "Surviving

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the Sermon, a Guide to Preaching

for Those Who Have to Listen"

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is "Your Way with God's word, Discovering

Your Distinctive Preaching Voice", which,

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leads people through exercises, helping

them recognize the voice within them, and

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the voice that is in process of coming to

be clearer, fuller, richer, deeper, wider.

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so that has been a valuable insight

to preachers who, want to be faithful

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to the gospel, but realize that it's

not possible to do that unless you

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can do it in your particular way.

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Philip Brooks, the famous, Episcopal

preacher at Trinity, Church,

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Wall Street, , put it this way.

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preaching, he says, is truth through

personality, not the truth of personality

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or truth about personality, but the

truth of the gospel embodied in and

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through the personality of the preacher.

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Brooks went on to say, if

it were possible to preach.

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All the truths of the incarnation in

a disembodied way that would not be

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preaching the truth of the incarnation.

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So it's a matter of coming more

aware of what distinctive gifts,

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limitations, wounds that I may have,

all of which God can make, good use of.

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to do that in the service of the gospel,

you can make a case for saying that

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the whole of scripture, the texts on

which we base our sermons is a series.

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Conversations back and forth

between, the author and the people.

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In some ways, the scripture

is an anthology of sermons.

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What we do as preachers is pick

up on that conversation and

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carry it into, the present day.

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Jon Shematek: David, you mentioned,

elements that might be involved.

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You mentioned wounds in particular.

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I'm wondering, some people say that

one of the most powerful ways to preach

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is through your own vulnerability.

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Do you think that's or no?

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David Schlafer: that is if one understands

it correctly, to simply use the pulpit.

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As an excuse for venting or weeping

or raging or, engaging in self

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therapy, will not work at all.

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Okay?

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And yet, to be able to access the

dimensions of one's wounds, sometimes

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without even mentioning yourself at

all, but using images, metaphors,

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anecdotes, can be, profoundly effective.

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a Christian educator of a previous,

generation, put it, This way,

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the I of the preacher needs

to become the I of the sermon.

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The capital I of the preacher needs

to become the IEYE of the sermon.

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what you are attempting to do is

not draw attention to yourself.

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Rather present your experience

in a way that other people can,

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identify with, even though it will

not be exactly the same as yours,

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it will be a point of human contact.

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Lauren Welch: And David, you also were

very instrumental in, deacon formation

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programs in Maryland, and Virginia to help

deacons learn, that they are called to

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preaching too, because the church did not

always see deacons as called to preaching,

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but to serving and being a servant.

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David Schlafer: Sure I could speak to

that with a fair degree of passion.

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often when working with deacons, in the

process of training to be preachers,

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I say that even though I'm a priest,

I have a certain degree of Deacon

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Envy because, based on a study I had

access to some time ago, it seems to

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me that not only are deacons allowed to

preach, but that, the role of deacon.

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Is fundamental to understanding

what preaching is about.

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Often if, deacons are allowed to preach at

all, it is simply, whipping up enthusiasm

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for the current, outreach project.

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let's bring on the deacon to

say, you must, you ought, you

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should get involved in this.

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But, the fundamental

understanding of, the diaconate.

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This, book that I was given access

to goes something like this.

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The initial reading, of Deacon was

found not in Christian, writing, but

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in Greek mythology where Hermes was

Zeus's, deacon Hermes, the winged,

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creature, Zeus, the Chief God.

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Hermes was, not just the messenger

boy, so to speak, but, deacon

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meant to be attendant, someone

who is right, beside, the master,

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attendant, spokesperson, embodiment.

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And so when Hermes speaks,

that's really Zeus speaking.

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Hermes is the name from which the

discipline of hermeneutics is, derived.

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what a preaching deacon is primarily,

is a hermaneut, someone who bridges the

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gap between, culture, and, Christian

community helps, one, understand the other

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sheds light from one upon, the other.

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in the book of Acts, there is the,

appointing of the deacons, all of

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whom are Greeks, in a church trying

to incorporate and integrate,

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Greek widows with Jewish folks.

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The initial concern is the

widows are not getting fed.

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the implication in terms of, the study

I did is that what the deacon at really

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did was, sit at table with, the Greeks,

when, the apostles were preaching and,

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the eyes of the Greeks glazed over.

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What the deacons would do would be to say,

Hey, explain that in a d different way.

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facilitating, a back

and forth interaction.

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my sense, is that, the role of the deacon

is translating, interpreting, the biblical

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experience, and scripture text into a

world that, doesn't understand it often,

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doesn't want it, but can be illumined

by it what seems in culture alien, can

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to those of us who are in the church.

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shine fresh light, and add deeper

meaning to, what we say we believe.

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Jon Shematek: I don't think I've

ever heard such a, distilled.

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And totally accurate description of

how I understand the diaconate as well.

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I just wouldn't have guessed

that, preaching was the model

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for that to be, exemplified.

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That's great.

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there are a couple of things

that have popped into my.

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Head.

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David, one of the things I'm wondering

about for you personally, before we

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ask things that are maybe a little

more theoretical is, I definitely

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have the sense looking back over your

life, that you've been so engaged

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with preaching pretty much all along.

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can you talk a little bit about,

What you love about preaching?

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What is it that you love about

teaching preaching, which I

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guess are two different things?

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David Schlafer: I think

they're closely connected.

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What I love about preaching is, if

in fact it's done well, one moves

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from as, politician, Fred Craddock

put it the nod of recognition.

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quite so I understand that.

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Through the shock of recognition,

oh my God, I never imagined

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it could be that way.

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the whole notion of faith as a journey

in which one is constantly, encountering,

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richer answers, which generate more

questions, which generate, more

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answers, the quest for truth itself,

is every bit as important as, being

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able to nab little bits of it, as you

go along the preaching that has meant

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the most to me has been what I have

heard people, preachers open up biblical

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texts in a way that I had no idea.

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It could mean that much, have

those kinds of rich implications.

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I think the reason I enjoy teaching

preaching is that there is an initial,

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understandable, appropriate shyness.

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Who am I to speak for God?

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I don't have the ability.

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you connect with all sorts of,

call narratives in scripture.

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Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Gideon,

Mary, how could this possibly be?

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find someone else, certainly not me,

but God, comes and says, Jeremiah,

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I have put my hand on your lips.

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I will tell you what to say,

you will be my mouthpiece.

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helping people in their own distinctive

ways to come into realizing how they can

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do that and how they can continue to grow.

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how they can learn from fellow

creatures because the act of

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preaching itself seems to be a solo

performance and a spectator sport.

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But the fact of the matter is, preachers

need each other as colleagues can learn

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from, support from grow with, each other.

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Forming communities of preachers who

gather as a community of practice.

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is a great joy, to me in some ways.

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as one other, homiletics professor,

whom I highly regard said I'm really

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like the bowl, which holds, all these

different, preachers in the same space.

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They interact with each other, teach

one another, and in the process I

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learned a great deal more about how I

can preach effectively in my own way.

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I discover new techniques, which can

be, evocative and illuminating, in

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terms of making suggestions to other

creatures, which is not simply a matter

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or ever, for that matter, a matter of

saying this was wrong, this was right.

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But this phrase, where exactly are

you hoping to take people with it?

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how does it relate to the idea earlier

in the sermon, which doesn't quite

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seem to square with that, both might

be true in a dialectical sort of way.

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The evolving of a preaching voice, like

the evolving of a sermon, is itself

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the spiritual journey, whether taken

by the individual preacher, whether

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taken by a group of, preachers in a

class or in, An ongoing commitment.

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it's just an exciting spiritual journey.

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Lauren Welch: It certainly is,

especially when you are teaching it.

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I can remember your energy.

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while you were teaching, which energized

all of us and we wanted to learn more.

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we wanted to learn to preach.

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what has surprised you the most?

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in your preaching journey

and your teaching journey,

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David Schlafer: I think on one hand

what has surprised me is, how difficult

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it can be to bridge gaps between

Christian community and local culture.

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It takes a tremendous amount of

thought, prayer, reflection to

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build those kinds of bridges.

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I'm always surprised when a

new bridge, reveals itself.

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it's a real struggle when you can't

seem to make connections so I suppose

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the surprise Has to do with being

persistent, but patient in the process

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of looking for connections that are

authentic, genuine not just simplistic,

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or superficial connections that, lead

to further growth and development.

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Jon Shematek: David, I'm thinking of

good sermons and not so good sermons

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that I've heard over my, lifetime.

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I'm pretty sure that the charism

or gift of preaching is not

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necessarily bestowed a hundred

percent on people that are ordained.

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David Schlafer: Oh, absolutely.

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some of the most effective preachers.

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Are ones that you have to listen to

because, people realize you're not

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being paid to say so, the whole notion

of evoking the preaching voices, of

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every member of the congregation,

is, is particularly important.

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What a good, ordained creature will do is.

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Stir up the gifts of communication and

connection, in members of the church

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community so that they can sustain and

grow, with each other, and spread the

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word, evangelism becomes not telling

you what you need to know and do,

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but engaging people in conversation

in which, insight is more fully.

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developed.,

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since Acts chapter two,

the, descent of Pentecost.

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It's often presented as though, when

the tongues of fire come upon, the

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disciples, they start spouting in

language that even they don't understand,

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that they've never heard before.

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at Pentecost.

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People from every nation would've

come, You can't mix in, the marketplace

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without picking up some words and

phrases from, folks you don't understand.

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my sense of, Pentecost is that,

Peter takes charge and he says,

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Who knows something of Parthian

who knows something of Medes?

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Go out there and engage in

conversation the best you can.

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what happens is, back and forth between

the languages, they come to understand

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the source of all their language, which is

the God whose, word, creates and convenes.

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Community.

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to your question.

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Yes, absolutely.

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non ordained preachers both in the pulpit,

but also by their life and witness, are

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really the most effective preachers.

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that the church has, I think.

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Jon Shematek: That's really

exciting to hear and I love it.

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I know that you've taught in a

lot of different sorts of venues

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and you will do, consulting or

meeting with, preachers regularly.

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do you do that sort of practice

with, non ordained people

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as well as ordained people?

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It certainly seems like that would be

a huge need and opportunity these days.

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David Schlafer: Yes, and the

way that often begins best is to

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gather, community of listeners.

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Who can become supportive of their parish,

preacher, pastor, priest, minister, to

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give them some skills for doing their

own deep listening so that they can

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give, effective, constructive feedback.

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To the, preacher, but also to extend the

spirited conversation of which that sermon

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is really simply, the starting point.

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and so done a fair number of

works with, number of workshops

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with small groups of, lay people.

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actually some of those, fairly, large

adult education kinds of, of settings.

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it's been a joy to help them realize

that they can not simply walk out

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and say, that was a good sermon, but

rather, here's what I heard you say.

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Here's what it leads me, to think,

here's the way in which, your sermon

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helped me, come to realize that.

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Here's where we could take this, the

ideas, the insights, the feelings,

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the focus, of the images of this

sermon and translate them more

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fully into life and the world.

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Jon Shematek: And what a joy that

would be as a preacher to have

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that sort of conversation after.

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No question.

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So David, sometimes we wait and see

what the Holy Spirit has in mind, and

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sometimes she tells us very clearly

and sometimes I say Lauren, I know

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you always have one final question.

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Lauren Welch: I always do.

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And David, you have shared your

passion, your love, of preaching

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and teaching preaching, to so many,

and you have empowered so many

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people to share the good news.

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What would you like to leave?

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Our listeners with today as a bit

of wisdom to take, to heart as they

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go out into the world and preach the

word, whether they're lay or ordained.

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David Schlafer: I think that, verse

of scripture, which says, the word

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of God is active and powerful,

sharper than a two-edged sword.

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able to separate between, bones

and marrow, is not, an image for

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cutting up, but rather getting

to the heart of the matter.

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I think it's terribly important in

a world when words are by and large

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in culture, one of two kinds trying

to sell you something, or trying to

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use words to bash people who are on

the other side of a political, fence.

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to be able to nurture a sense

of deep listening, careful

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speaking, respectful conversation.

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illuminating understanding so that, one

never has the last word, but the last

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word spoken is always the first word

for the next, round of conversation.

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you think about it.

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the way in which we experience

the most growth, the most

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intimacy, the most success is

when we interact with each other.

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In, a verbal way.

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And of course, it is possible to

engage in nonverbal communication,

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which often can speak very powerfully.

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and yet, we're in a time, it

seems to me when language is

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under a great deal of assault.

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To be able to try to bring people back to

its beauty, the beauty of language, the

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light that language sheds the connections

that are made at people integrate,

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their understandings with each other.

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it's a very powerful, thing to see

how destructive language can be.

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And alternatively how

creative language can be.

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I think what we are called to

do as responsible citizens, is,

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to combat the destructive force

of language, with a gracious.

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nurturing, empowering,

creative use of language.

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Jon Shematek: What a, powerful and timely

message for today and for days to come.

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David, this has been a joy.

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Thank you so much for being here today

and, giving us your words of wisdom

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and rekindling in me personally,

a wonderful, relationship and an

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excitement, for preaching the word of God.

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I just wanna personally thank you very

much for your time and your words today.

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David Schlafer: Just a joy

to be with both of you again.

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thanks so much.

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Lauren Welch: David, it has been a

delight to have you with us today.

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So thank you again And I

want to thank all who are.

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Watching and listening for

the gift of your time with us.

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Until next time, peace and blessings.

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Lynn Shematek: This episode

of Good News has been brought

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: 00:26:05

to you by Listening for Clues.

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: 00:26:09

For more podcasts, check out

our YouTube channel or our

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: 00:26:13

website listening for clues.com.