Gen Z and the Future of the Church

Speaker: 00:00:01

Music

2

: 00:00:18

Jon: Welcome to Good News, being

brought to you by Listening for Clues.

3

: 00:00:24

Lauren: We are Lauren Welch and

Jon Shematek, deacons in the

4

: 00:00:27

Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

5

: 00:00:29

Jon: We sure are, and today we have a

special guest, Brother Christian Ventura.

6

: 00:00:36

Brother Christian is a simple professed

Dominican friar in the Priory of St.

7

: 00:00:42

Simeon and John, and a postulant

for the vocational diaconate in

8

: 00:00:48

the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland.

9

: 00:00:51

Previously, he has served as an

advanced EMT, that's emergency medical

10

: 00:00:57

technician, and public health scientist

11

: 00:01:01

he is passionate about engaging

the diaconal heart of Gen Z,

12

: 00:01:07

inclusive Anglo catholicism, healing

ministry, and monastic hospitality.

13

: 00:01:15

Welcome, Christian.

14

: 00:01:18

Christian: Thank you so much.

15

: 00:01:18

I appreciate it.

16

: 00:01:19

Thank you for having me.

17

: 00:01:21

Lauren: We are delighted to have you

with us today, Christian especially as a

18

: 00:01:27

postulant in the Deacon Formation program

19

: 00:01:29

I've waited for years to have

someone your age come and be with

20

: 00:01:34

us, so I am, ecstatically happy.

21

: 00:01:37

But first, tell us about

your being a Dominican friar.

22

: 00:01:41

Christian: That's a great question.

23

: 00:01:43

Yeah, a lot of people don't know

that monasticism still exists in

24

: 00:01:47

the 21st century aside from Roman

Catholic nuns or Buddhist monks.

25

: 00:01:52

And so I always appreciate it

when people inquire about, , what

26

: 00:01:56

does it mean to be a friar today?

27

: 00:01:58

And so there's this new...

28

: 00:02:00

Monastic movement, where in just

in the past century or so, we've

29

: 00:02:04

been reinvigorating how we can

live out monastic rules of life.

30

: 00:02:10

And so as a Dominican, I live the rule

of life of Saint Augustine, which was...

31

: 00:02:16

the rule that was given to St.

32

: 00:02:18

Dominic and being a friar looks like

different things for different people.

33

: 00:02:22

As a dispersed friar myself, my brothers

and sisters all live it on our own most

34

: 00:02:28

of us have secular roles but yet we

have a consecrated life and so it's very

35

: 00:02:33

different than either being a member of.

36

: 00:02:36

The laity or being a clergy person it's

one has been set apart to consecrate their

37

: 00:02:42

life, to, to prayer and contemplation.

38

: 00:02:45

And particularly in the Dominican charism.

39

: 00:02:48

It's to preaching, to preaching

and to dedicated to pursuing the

40

: 00:02:52

truth and, and preaching the gospels

throughout all ends of the earth.

41

: 00:02:57

Jon: Well, that's great.

42

: 00:02:58

And that certainly is a wonderful

link to being called to be a deacon.

43

: 00:03:03

In the church as well.

44

: 00:03:05

Preaching is an element of that, certainly

the social justice aspect is there.

45

: 00:03:11

You also, and you also

were, At one point, an EMT.

46

: 00:03:17

And what was that like?

47

: 00:03:20

Christian: Yeah.

48

: 00:03:20

So I've worked just a little over four

and a half years as an advanced EMT.

49

: 00:03:25

I worked in Boston and then in

rural Vermont for a little bit.

50

: 00:03:29

When my husband was a student at

Vermont law school so we were in this

51

: 00:03:33

really rural area and I was able to

take care of some pretty decently

52

: 00:03:38

sick people injured by agricultural

vehicles and things like that.

53

: 00:03:43

It was a really good experience for me.

54

: 00:03:46

, I really enjoyed emergency

medical services.

55

: 00:03:48

I enjoyed taking care of patients and

being with people when they were in

56

: 00:03:54

really and I think that that was a

little bit of a foreshadow to, to what

57

: 00:04:00

I would later explore was my religious

vocation and my vocation to the diaconate.

58

: 00:04:06

It certainly inspired how I

think about our relationship.

59

: 00:04:11

Yeah, so I definitely learned a

lot, especially working in the

60

: 00:04:15

context of the COVID pandemic.

61

: 00:04:17

There was a lot I had to learn there

and taking care of people for goodness.

62

: 00:04:23

We were so rural that I would sometimes

need to be taking care of a patient.

63

: 00:04:27

for an hour to get to the nearest hospital

and wearing a bunch of this PPE on me.

64

: 00:04:33

, I like to think that that was a

foreshadow to , being accustomed to

65

: 00:04:37

wearing a lot of things because wearing

a habit in the summer is something

66

: 00:04:43

that you have to be accustomed to

67

: 00:04:45

Jon: yeah, especially a

summer in Baltimore I'm rather

68

: 00:04:48

interested in the habit too.

69

: 00:04:50

I guess it has primarily a

symbolic purpose, is that right?

70

: 00:04:53

Christian: Yeah, so the habit that

I'm wearing right now is the simple

71

: 00:04:57

Dominican habit, and it's essentially

a tunic underneath, and then I have

72

: 00:05:02

my scapular here, which has been,

has been consecrated by a bishop and

73

: 00:05:07

then I have my capuche, or a cowl,

medieval cowl, sometimes they're called.

74

: 00:05:11

And I'm also wearing a cincture,

which is just a leather belt.

75

: 00:05:15

And my 50 decade rosary.

76

: 00:05:17

Wow.

77

: 00:05:19

And there's a big significance to that.

78

: 00:05:22

So, so partly because the

habit was given to St.

79

: 00:05:25

Dominic in a dream we believe by

the Blessed Virgin Mary herself.

80

: 00:05:30

As well as the Rosary, and something

that, , you see as Dominican Friars, where

81

: 00:05:34

even those that are Episcopalian, because

not a lot of Episcopalians pray the

82

: 00:05:37

Rosary, or it's part of their piety, but

specifically for Dominicans , it's a big

83

: 00:05:41

part of the devotion, because we believe

that it was first introduced to St.

84

: 00:05:47

Dominic by the Blessed Virgin

Mary herself, specifically as

85

: 00:05:51

a tool to use for world peace.

86

: 00:05:54

And so, one of St.

87

: 00:05:55

Dominic's favorite quotes was Instead

of taking up a sword, take up prayer.

88

: 00:05:59

And we remind ourselves by, by having our

rosary on our left side, where usually

89

: 00:06:04

one would carry a sword would be to, , we

should use prayer instead of violence.

90

: 00:06:09

And that's a big part of the

inspiration for the habit.

91

: 00:06:12

When any of the friars or sisters are

out and we're representing the Order, you

92

: 00:06:17

might see us wear black, and so we wear a

black magna capa on top in addition to a

93

: 00:06:23

black capuche, and that reminds us that,

, our life is consecrated, that we have to

94

: 00:06:29

conduct ourselves in a way that

is appropriate to the order that's

95

: 00:06:33

how in England the Dominican

Friars were coined Black Friars.

96

: 00:06:39

And if you go to London today, you will

notice that there is a Black Friars

97

: 00:06:44

pub, which is where an old friary was.

98

: 00:06:49

Lauren: So, I'm, I'm curious

Christian where do you see

99

: 00:06:54

your your vocation as a deacon?

100

: 00:06:57

Christian: Yeah, that's a great question.

101

: 00:06:59

, I, I was pulled to the diaconate for

for a lot of reasons, but I think

102

: 00:07:06

primarily because , I was told by one

of my former mentors Deacon Natalie

103

: 00:07:13

Conway, she says that I can quote

her on this, and she had said to me

104

: 00:07:17

something that I'll never forget.

105

: 00:07:18

She said, the Episcopal Church is now

more diaconal than it ever has been

106

: 00:07:24

and I just continue to contemplate and

think about that to this day just, just

107

: 00:07:30

how important about what that means.

108

: 00:07:33

And also this generation is Generation

Z in particular, a lot of young folks,

109

: 00:07:39

, value social justice, value reparations,

value truth and reconciliation.

110

: 00:07:46

And, , I like to think that at the

core of the spirituality of Generation

111

: 00:07:52

Z is a deacon's beating heart.

112

: 00:07:54

And so I just think that, , right now

is, is a great time for people to discern

113

: 00:08:00

calls to the diaconate, especially with,

with where the church is going and,

114

: 00:08:04

and all of, , the initiatives that a

lot of great people are, are running.

115

: 00:08:08

, Jon: I'm not asking you to speak

for an entire generation of people.

116

: 00:08:12

You'll be speaking primarily for yourself.

117

: 00:08:14

But I'm very curious, , those of us

who are in organized religion, whether

118

: 00:08:20

it's the Episcopal Church or some other

form of religious expression, Christian

119

: 00:08:25

or otherwise, have concerns about

how the church itself Can stay alive.

120

: 00:08:33

Hmm.

121

: 00:08:33

Our, our forms are a, the ancient

forms, which I'm sure you embrace

122

: 00:08:39

to some great extent no longer speak

to people in our age our music may

123

: 00:08:44

not speak to people in our age.

124

: 00:08:47

And I guess I'm just kind of tacking

on to what you said about Gen Z having

125

: 00:08:51

a diaconal heart, and that is, to me,

that's not good news, that's great news.

126

: 00:08:55

What do you think the church, if there

is anything that the church needs to do?

127

: 00:09:01

to engage younger people is it

something that just needs to

128

: 00:09:05

evolve in a different way or, , say

goodbye to us old folks and move on?

129

: 00:09:11

Christian: I'm so glad that you asked

because , In speaking with a lot of

130

: 00:09:17

folks in my generation and Episcopalians

and other Christian denominations, I

131

: 00:09:23

learned a lot that was surprising to me.

132

: 00:09:27

And one of the biggest

surprises to me was that...

133

: 00:09:31

There are a ton of queer identifying

folk that lean more towards

134

: 00:09:36

an Anglo Catholic orientation.

135

: 00:09:39

And I was shocked about this, but we've

begun to learn is that , a lot of queer

136

: 00:09:44

folks that are, that are attracted to

Anglo Catholicism and high church worship

137

: 00:09:50

is that these were sacraments that they

would have never imagined they would

138

: 00:09:55

be able to be in a safe space and have.

139

: 00:09:58

And so, when I got married to my

husband just two months ago June,

140

: 00:10:04

July, August, just two months ago, we

had a very Catholic looking wedding.

141

: 00:10:10

And mostly because...

142

: 00:10:12

Him and I would have never imagined

that we would say the Nicene

143

: 00:10:18

Creed at our wedding and have the

Eucharistic prayer happen in such

144

: 00:10:23

a way with the beautiful language.

145

: 00:10:24

And so I definitely think that there

are a ton of young folks who admire

146

: 00:10:32

and appreciate the traditional

aspect of the Episcopal Church.

147

: 00:10:36

And I think that , there is some worth in

retaining that component, that liturgy,

148

: 00:10:40

because it does speak to a lot of people,

and I think in some cases, can actually

149

: 00:10:45

be a pretty strong point of attraction,

150

: 00:10:47

.

At Grace and St.

151

: 00:10:48

Peter's, we're an Anglo Catholic parish

in the diocese, and we have a lot of

152

: 00:10:53

young folks who are, of traditionally

marginalized, , identities, and they feel

153

: 00:10:59

a space here in a very Cramerian language

type, right one, east facing mass.

154

: 00:11:07

And it's beautiful.

155

: 00:11:08

It's not, it certainly is, is not

always expected, but it's beautiful.

156

: 00:11:13

In terms of what our church, , what the

church is called to do, , I personally

157

: 00:11:19

think that The Church has a responsibility

to support people in discerning

158

: 00:11:26

vocations for their baptismal ministry.

159

: 00:11:28

Whether that looks like, , ordained

ministry, or whether that is

160

: 00:11:33

diaconal ministry as a layperson.

161

: 00:11:36

I mean, even in the laity, the laity

are called to do, , diaconal ministry,

162

: 00:11:41

as all of us are think that what

that might look like is to empower

163

: 00:11:47

Gen Z in what it is they already do.

164

: 00:11:50

And so, you see, , that, Gen Z folks are

very vocal about what they care about.

165

: 00:11:54

And are preaching, not necessarily

from their pulpit, but they're

166

: 00:11:58

preaching from Twitter, now X.

167

: 00:12:02

. A ton of opportunities where people

are being very vocal about what they

168

: 00:12:05

care about and are dedicated to truth.

169

: 00:12:08

And I think that if the church can

help in some ways speak that language

170

: 00:12:13

and engage people in, in areas that

Gen Z has already almost mastered in a

171

: 00:12:18

sense, , these, these online tools and

this digital evangelism , I think that,

172

: 00:12:24

that there's a lot of in the recent

It's All About Love Festival, I attended

173

: 00:12:29

this wonderful workshop with Reverend

Riley, which was TikTok Evangelism, and

174

: 00:12:35

we had shared that , she has been able

to connect people to churches that are

175

: 00:12:42

safe spaces for people, not just in the

Episcopal Church, but locally through

176

: 00:12:46

other denominations too, , this is a way

that The church can give back, not just

177

: 00:12:51

for our Episcopalian tradition, but also

for the entirety of the body of Christ.

178

: 00:12:56

So, , I have a lot of optimism.

179

: 00:12:59

I have a, I have a lot of hope.

180

: 00:13:01

Jon: That's great Hope.

181

: 00:13:02

And hope is supposed to be

one of the big things that the

182

: 00:13:05

church offers to people, ? It is.

183

: 00:13:07

You also made me think that if the

church is truly following Jesus in

184

: 00:13:13

the way of love and Gen Z folks, or.

185

: 00:13:17

following the way of love,

whether they're seeing it as the

186

: 00:13:20

way that Jesus pointed or not.

187

: 00:13:22

We're at least on a parallel path,

and we are together in that way.

188

: 00:13:25

So that's that's a reassuring and

hopeful message to me, Christian.

189

: 00:13:29

Thank you for that.

190

: 00:13:31

Christian: Absolutely.

191

: 00:13:32

, I think when, when Presiding Bishop Curry

says that if it's not about love, it's

192

: 00:13:36

not about Jesus I know you mentioned the

sense of, of an organized religion, and

193

: 00:13:41

I think that that's, those are key words

that I hear a lot of younger folks use

194

: 00:13:45

is that, I want to experience God, but I

don't like the idea of organized religion.

195

: 00:13:50

And a lot of and that's a good

point because that makes sense.

196

: 00:13:54

A lot of people have been hurt by

organized religion in many ways.

197

: 00:13:59

What I think that some young folks

might need to hear is what, what

198

: 00:14:05

beloved community looks like.

199

: 00:14:06

And that, yes, we all absolutely

can explore our own experiences with

200

: 00:14:10

the divine, but having, , communal

worship together is so special

201

: 00:14:17

and spectacular, and to love our

neighbors together with our neighbors

202

: 00:14:23

is, is just, is a beautiful thing.

203

: 00:14:26

For us to continue to create spaces as a

church for people to experience Beloved

204

: 00:14:30

Community, I think is another area that

we certainly should continue to support.

205

: 00:14:36

Lauren: Thank you for that, Christian

what you're bringing up for me is

206

: 00:14:40

that there's so many different ways of

experiencing community and all of the

207

: 00:14:45

social media platforms that some of us

older folks do not engage in, but they

208

: 00:14:51

are there and what I think Gen Zers

and anyone else who is involved in that

209

: 00:14:58

kind of activity are prophets of our

time because they can go anywhere and

210

: 00:15:03

share the message, share evangelism,

share what love is what the ministry

211

: 00:15:10

that the church is truly called to.

212

: 00:15:12

Have you had, found any difficulties?

213

: 00:15:14

Have you had any obstacles in your way?

214

: 00:15:18

Christian: Oh, certainly.

215

: 00:15:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

216

: 00:15:22

What I will say is that I think that I

have been very blessed to experience the

217

: 00:15:29

discernment and formation experiences

that I've had in my calls my Dominican

218

: 00:15:34

formation was very supportive of, my

brothers and sisters were very supportive,

219

: 00:15:39

and my introduction to the Episcopal

Diocese of Maryland and my community

220

: 00:15:46

discernment, and then my admission to

postulancy was All very supportive.

221

: 00:15:51

Especially I definitely have to

point out that , that Bishop Ihloff,

222

: 00:15:56

who, who is now retired, was a

very big part of my discernment.

223

: 00:16:00

And I remember my, my husband and I once

gifted him an icon of, of a Pentecost

224

: 00:16:07

because of his vocation to supporting

people in different ways and how they're

225

: 00:16:11

called to the Spirit and to, , to

manifest the workings of the Holy Spirit.

226

: 00:16:16

So I would say that I'm, I'm, I was very

lucky and very blessed to have such a warm

227

: 00:16:22

welcoming and such a warm support here

in this diocese and also at my priory.

228

: 00:16:26

But I also know that not everyone

experiences that, . I know that

229

: 00:16:31

the church as an institution by

the nature of being run by humans

230

: 00:16:35

is open to the flaws of humanity.

231

: 00:16:37

And so, , young folks, especially

young folks that are gay or young folks

232

: 00:16:41

that are , of color can experience

things like racism, bias not be taking

233

: 00:16:49

seriously because of their youthfulness.

234

: 00:16:53

And I think that what I would have

wanted to hear that, well, the

235

: 00:16:58

youthfulness is part of your vocation.

236

: 00:17:00

The youthfulness is a modality for

which you can minister through.

237

: 00:17:03

And, and that was a game

changer for me, I would say.

238

: 00:17:08

Jon: So Christian if people want

to find out more about some of the

239

: 00:17:12

things you've done or about, dare say,

monasticism or the Dominican order or,

240

: 00:17:19

or what have you or can you point us our

viewers and listeners in any direction?

241

: 00:17:24

And I'll be sure to include any

links in our show notes, but are

242

: 00:17:27

there, are there places you would

you would point us to learn more?

243

: 00:17:31

Christian: Yeah, so I would certainly

say that , I, I always love talking

244

: 00:17:36

to people about inclusive orthodoxy

or monasticism and so I'm, I'm always

245

: 00:17:42

open to, , sharing my email or people

are welcome to reach out to me over

246

: 00:17:46

Facebook and I'm more than happy to have

conversations one on one with people to

247

: 00:17:51

help them, , or at least point them in the

right direction for whom they should be.

248

: 00:17:55

In, in terms of , monasticism in general,

I think that if you search online,

249

: 00:18:00

there's a lot of great resources where

people can look at different charisms

250

: 00:18:04

and see what might speak to them.

251

: 00:18:06

But ultimately, I think if anyone is, is

feels a call to some sort of ordered life

252

: 00:18:12

is to get in touch with their spiritual

director and one that can help them.

253

: 00:18:17

, listen to what the spirit is, is calling

them to you and then to help match

254

: 00:18:22

those charisms to, , because I think

as part of specifically with older life

255

: 00:18:26

is that some people might already be

living the charism either by virtue of

256

: 00:18:31

their job or who they are as a person.

257

: 00:18:34

And that's who they are.

258

: 00:18:36

And it just later on becomes just

a label that's add on to who they

259

: 00:18:40

already are as, as a beloved.

260

: 00:18:42

Child of God.

261

: 00:18:43

But yes, so I'm, I'm social media.

262

: 00:18:46

I'm, I'm happy to be yeah, to reach

out to you and chat with folks.

263

: 00:18:50

Jon: Great.

264

: 00:18:50

So we'll, we'll put at least your

Facebook link will be in the show notes

265

: 00:18:54

and people can reach you that way and

follow up if if they're interested.

266

: 00:18:58

Yeah.

267

: 00:18:58

Thanks for that.

268

: 00:18:59

Great.

269

: 00:19:00

Lauren: Christian, before we go, are

there any other words of wisdom you

270

: 00:19:04

would like to leave for the future of our

church and, and our communities together?

271

: 00:19:11

Christian: Yeah, I will say all

of the, the great words are from

272

: 00:19:16

Dominicans have already been

said, not for, and are not for me.

273

: 00:19:20

So, I'll leave you with words from St.

274

: 00:19:23

Catherine of Siena.

275

: 00:19:24

And St.

276

: 00:19:25

Catherine of Siena, one of my favorites.

277

: 00:19:27

She says be who God calls you to be

and you will set the world on fire.

278

: 00:19:32

Lauren: You will set the world on fire

too and call so many people to do so.

279

: 00:19:37

Thank

280

: 00:19:37

Jon: you.

281

: 00:19:38

Amen.

282

: 00:19:39

Amen.

283

: 00:19:39

Thanks.

284

: 00:19:40

Thanks Christian for being with us today.

285

: 00:19:41

We really appreciate it.

286

: 00:19:43

Christian: Thank you both.

287

: 00:19:44

It was lovely.

288

: 00:19:48

Lauren: And Jon and I now want

to thank all of our viewers and

289

: 00:19:52

listeners that are with us today.

290

: 00:19:54

We cannot do this without you, so please

take a moment to comment, like, or share

291

: 00:20:01

on all your social media platforms.

292

: 00:20:04

This will help us to spread the

good news even to more people.

293

: 00:20:10

And again, until next time, thank you

for the gift of your time with us today.

294

: 00:20:15

Until next time, peace and blessing.

295

: 00:20:18

Good news is being brought to

you by Listening for Clues.

296

: 00:20:22

You can find us on our

website, listeningforclues.

297

: 00:20:25

com, our YouTube channel, our

Vimeo channel, and just about every

298

: 00:20:30

podcast platform that there is.

299

: 00:20:32

Hope to see you soon.